Product Liability Insurance.

The debate about carbide tipped tools got me thinking about insurance.

Do those of you who sell your pens have product liability insurance? I do because I don't want to have to sell my house to pay the legal bills if someone pokes their eye out with one of my pens and then tries to blame the pen or sets fire to their house with one of my tea lights.

What are your thoughts on the subject?

Walter

If they fall on to the pen or whatever thats not the sellers fault or light a tea light under a curtain thats not the sellers fault .

Indeed not my friend, but if the customer thinks it is and takes you to the small claims court it could still end up costing you money even if you win the case.

And what if the pen was faulty or the glass in the tea light was defective and did cause the fire?

Remember the law is an ass.

No legal expert, but I would have thought that you would not require PLI in a situation like this.

PLI would be more related to a situation where you made turning tools and sold them, in which case yes I would have thought it would be sensible to have it.

Just my thoughts, take no legal advice from me !

Then ikea would get a call for the glass if the fault was with the kit and not the assembler then the supplier would get a call.

I'm keeping out of this one I'm still getting over the last debate have fun

If the window cleaner trips over one of your plant pots in your back yard ...he can sue you !! Where does it all end . As it happens our window cleaner bought a bolt action pen from me ,so if he has it on him when he trips over my plant pot and the pen goes off and blows his foot off it's a double jeopardy situation for me.

Hi,

Ithink Walter is absolutely correct.
Turnaround, you re correct Ikea etc would get a call but as the retailer its down to you, to replace etc. Untimately Ikea may be at fault but try proving it, i would think they would try anything, such as we sell so many thousand each year, no problems and have very few returned, it must have been the seller ie you or me.
I think ikea or a n other company would say and try anything so as to not admitliability.

I have carft insurance, for the liability part 5 million or something and about £8 per month.

I wasn't going to but a friend of mine, an insurance broker told me that if someones grandaughter cuts themselves on a rough edge and sues with rent a solicitor, i would have aproblem and house and boss ladies car and earings would be at risk.
An extreme analogy, yes. He doesn't sell this insurance.
We have had to use a solicitor for something recently and £250 per hour it hurt, i know thats not quite as much as accountants charge but still !!

But people sue for anything and once one person has and it gets around others follow. Pavements. Our council employs one or two people just to walk the streets marking unsafe paving stones. As then they are deemed to be going to be fixed. So i think no one can sue if they trip up on it. Lets face it some people deliberately fall over dodgy pavements just for a payout. Its got so bad on the sunny North East coast that where we live the whole borough is gradually having the paving slabs taken out to be replaced by tarmac, lovely. All because of dodgy claims.

The thing is and the way i look at it, some people will try anything on these days and make up things to fit and these bands of ambulance chasing breifs encourage people to do it as well, albeit subtely.

Yes i am being extreme but it only has to happen once as has been pointed out.

We don't sell second hand items at a boot sale, they are new and i am sure we all come under ditance selling regs, and ale of goods act or whatever they arecalled etc.

Even if something is perfect when you sell it, could you prove it if something happened or more importantly was alleged ?

I photograph all my pens, but whether i keep it up and keep each and every picture is debatable and probably won't happen in reality.

But with insurance you ve got access to solicitors and have the liability to fall back on just in case.

I would rather not spend £8 per month but today it probably is essential.

If anyone did have a problem like this, then yes if it was me i would ring Ikea or the pen kit manufacturer but it would be me having action taken against me not against Ikea or any one else. A big company is probably not likely going to admit it was their fault anyway.
I cynically call it musical chairs, as someone is more than likely going to have to pay and its normally the one left without a seat.


I am am no legal expert these are just my views, etc.

Regards

Pete

I think Walter has a valid point. In todays society where unfortunately some people will try to get money anyway they can, you have to be covered against it. If a nib or segment comes off and is swallowed by a child or someone is allergic to the finish you've put on it.... its all to easy to find a reason.

Could you give us details of your insurance Walter?

And what about stallholders insurance? How many of us has it? Some organisers insist on insurance for everything - third party, staff, products, or if you let one go in a crowded hall after a night on the curry! By the way - all electrical item you use on your stall (lights, extension leads, etc, should have PAT certificates.)

It's not worth getting out of bed in the morning - stay there!!!

Bob.

Oh dear!! I didn't mean to start another debate. I just wanted you all to be aware of the risks of not having insurance so you can choose for yourselves whether or not insurance might be a good idea.

Turnaround360 is absolutely right about where the fault would lie in the example I gave of the tea light glass, but as Pete has explained that is not the way the law works. Under the Sale of Goods Act the customer's contract is with the vendor (in this case me) and it is to me who they have recourse in the event of a problem. It would be then up to me, or my insurers, to seek recompenses from Ikea by proving that the product they supplied to me was defective.

Let me give you an example. I am typing this on a Toshiba Laptop purchased from John Lewis. It contains a Hitachi hard disk which no doubt contains electronic components manufactured by some unknown far eastern manufacturer.

If the disk fails because of a fault in one of those components my recourse under the law is not to the manufacturer of the component, or Hitachi, or Toshiba but to John Lewis who sold me the machine.

This is not my opinion it's just a matter of fact. That is how the law works. I am not seeking to start a debate about it, if you you are so inclined you can research it yourself. This would be a good place to start:

http://www.oft.gov.uk/shared_oft/738369/738375/OFT002_SOGA_explained.pdf

Only you can decide whether insurance is worthwhile for you. I have no doubt that it is for me and I also have public liability insurance in case anyone gets hit by flying debris at one of my demo's.

I have to say Walter is 100% correct in his statement on the law regarding seller and manufacturer the seller is always responsible to the purchaser by law so on this one opinions don't count if you buy an Axminster lathe and it develops a fault who do you contact
As ridiculous as some claims may be and regardless of all the argument you may put forward at the end of the day none of that counts law will win over opinions every time boy am I glad my selling days are drawing to an end our stall this Christmas will be our last which by the way we have got public liability ins for
So for once Walter and I are in full agreement that makes a change doesn't it Walter LOL

Let's not get confused between product liability insurance and public liability insurance. The advice from my legal advisor is that I do not need product liability insurance. Product liability concerns the design of the item that you design. Design in this context doesn't mean the shape of a pepper mill for example, but the mechanism. To progress the analogy, if someone sold a pepper ill and it was found that the twisting motion to grind the pepper generated static electricity that discharged and caused the operative to have a heart attack, the the recourse would be via the designers product liability insurance, regardless of who the ultimate retailer is or was.

I have 5 mill public liability insurance, commonly offered is either 2or 5. Most local authorities demand 5, most private organisers don't stipulate as long as you have pli, they view the amount as your decision.

Public liability covers you in case your stand falls on someone and injures or kills someone or if a lightbulb should explode and glass should cut someone or similar. However, you should check with your insurer for specific eventualities, for instance if you demonstrate with a lathe. Moving parts and sharp tools-I choose to have an elevated table that I use to keep the lathe out of the reach if children, and normally have a sign saying keep yer mite orf. Whilst I have always been of the opinion that risk aasesments are for those who have absolutely no intelligence or common sense, but they do provide a defence to prosecution if you can prove a degree of responsibility and respect for the health and safety police. If your risk assesment shows for example that there is a risk due to moving parts and that you have identified that by moving the lathe out of reach of young children and that you have taken precautions by putting a sign up to deter cretins intent on self destruction then a case against you would probably fail on the grounds that the injured party was instrumental in his own demise. However if you have been negligent in the construction of your stand, then you may well find your insurance invalidated. Depressing isn't it.

You've possibly gathered that I'm at a rather slow show!!!!

But I continue my word of warning on insurance because the other consideration is where you trade. Home or at fairs. You will think I am being pedantic but if you do sell a pen from home different insurance companies respond differently and in this era of insurance companies trying to offset their claims an unwary pen seller is easy prey. If you trade at fairs then public liability is a must. If an organiser discovers that you don't have pli they are quite at liberty to stop you trading as by implication they could be sued!

I god Walter you have started a mass debate I am going to stay quite on this one

All the way through reading this i kept telling myself be like Woody stay out of it.
The very person who quoted to me in a previous argument on another forum "where there is blame, there is a claaim and I will persue it" may be reading this.
But I just can't help myself I have to gob off at every opportunity whether I am right or wrong.
I have read some perfectly valid points from all participants but common sense is not the case when it comes to liability and blame has to end somewhere.
It also has to start somewhere and you are the purchasers point of contact, your defence is only as good as your administration and suppliers.
If you buy dodgy goods from China, Ebay or boot sales You should check their ability to back up their product. The responsibility is yours.
It all comes down to a paper chase at the end of the day ISO this that and the other.
I just hope it never comes down to you having to go through the procedure.
Likewise your insurance company will refuse to cover you if you don't follow their small print so you could be wasting your money by buying it.
Also watch out for the VAT man he could be reading this.

Grump said:

Also watch out for the VAT man he could be reading this.

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Leave my little brother out of this.

Product Liability insurance is not just about design.

You may be liable for injury caused by a physical product that your business designs, manufactures or supplies whether it is sold or given away for free.

As before this not my opinion or what next door's mother in law's cat said it is a fact:

https://www.abi.org.uk/Insurance-an...ability-insurance/Product-liability-insurance

I begin to wish I hadn't started this thread. All I want to do is make sure people aren't at risk of losing their homes and possessions because some pillock takes a punt on suing you. I can give you no better advice than to read this and act upon it.

https://www.abi.org.uk/~/media/File...sses a guide to protecting your business.ashx

Woody said:

So for once Walter and I are in full agreement that makes a change doesn't it Walter LOL

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Sorry Woody, only just spotted your footnote. I am sure we agree on a lot of things my friend, as you say we are both grumpy old gits so we should have a lot in common. Long may it continue.

Brian mentions working from home, so here's something else to think about - if you use any part of your dwelling to manufacture things to sell for a profit then your normal house insurance won't cover it. In other words if a spark from your grinder sets fire to all that sawdust you've got spread around you will be in the sh$t re making a claim.

Like I said earlier - stay in bed!!!

Bob.

And all those expensive tools in the shed. You might want to check how well your home insurance covers those or if you need separate workshop cover.

I am going into the workshop now to do something useful (like clean up the shavings before I set fire to them.)