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Thien separator

Doug

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Just wondered if anyone had made a Thien separator ?

I have a Oneida dust deputy which works brilliantly but I want to make a bigger version & from the research I've done so far the Thien looks like a simpler build.
 

Jim

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Can't help you Doug, i have never made one, and before this post i had never heard the word "Thien" ... :rolling: :goesred::goesred:
 

Penpal

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Yes Doug, I made a Thien USA from IAP instructions separator and use it all the time at the Pen Lathe it works great.

Years ago I made in another area using a small oil drum a cyclone in between a dust extractor and an upright bag extractor it has been wonderful also feeding 6 machines. I created the cyclone using water pipe plastic fittings. I will take a pic of the bThien one today after church cant access for pics the home made cyclone. I also have a small Oneida and they work a treat.

Kind regards Peter.
 

Doug

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Thanks for the replies :thumbs:


Look on Youtube, lots on there!

There are indeed John but most just show them working with little reference to how much dust is getting through to the extractor, in fact one where the bloke was sucking up drywall dust & showed the dust in the extractor looked to have given very poor performance.
Also they don't tend to give much info on how they built them or if they do they aren't relevant to what I want to make. That said I am still researching, my first idea was to make a cyclone but as I want to use 4" pipe the whole unit could become too big for the space I have available for it.
 

Penpal

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Doug for your 4 inch system I would go for Woodies suggestion quick and efficient for the purpose and shove a Thien where it fits best on particular machines with gates at each one. Works for me.

Another way is the commercial many bags filtered system on the end of my 1960,s Woodfast lathe the pipes run through the base.

Also as promised a pic of The Thien Separator under the VL100 Lathe fitted a Corian separator plate inside the whole in a metal bin that was for recycling paper in another reincarnation in the workshop.

The Vac under the middle of the Woodfast is connected up top when I use the Vacuum Chuck from Vicmark works a treat as well. As a by the way someone said they would like to see my workshop I have been posting pics from all round it since I joined the forum. More to come in the future.

Kind regards Peter.
 

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naxie

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I have two of them Doug, I have shown photos and talked about them somewhere on this forum but I can't for the life of me find the thread!

I am on my phone though so I'll take a look later when I can get to a PC/pad.
 

silver

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Morning Doug,

I have had allot of experience with cyclone technology over the last 35 years as I work in a plant that relies on them for production. And trust me I have been on the end of quite a few when they block up as well.. Bear in mind that the cyclones I am used to are capable of holding 200t of product.. :down:

Most cyclones can be put in to one category, that is they separate the material from the airflow.. It doesn't matter what make they are that is all they have to do...

This link below is one that Bill Pentz had published in the woodturning magazine, at the time I thought it was a good layout and could be scaled down to suit.

http://webpages.charter.net/pjbolin...eparator - cyclone and thien baffle plans.pdf

The most important thing with a cyclone is to reduce the material speed but maintain the air volume through the cyclone.

To do that, the inlet needs to be made at least 1.5 times the size of the outlet.. And the vortex finder (dip tube) depth should be at least 60% below the top of the material inlet.. But remember.... Anything smaller than PM10 will go through any cyclone and block up the filter, even the famous Mr D can't beat that.. That's why one or two on here have blown theirs up..:funny:
 

Doug

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Doug

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Aug 25, 2013
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Location
In the wood shop
First Name
Take a guess
Morning Doug,

I have had allot of experience with cyclone technology over the last 35 years as I work in a plant that relies on them for production. And trust me I have been on the end of quite a few when they block up as well.. Bear in mind that the cyclones I am used to are capable of holding 200t of product.. :down:

Most cyclones can be put in to one category, that is they separate the material from the airflow.. It doesn't matter what make they are that is all they have to do...

This link below is one that Bill Pentz had published in the woodturning magazine, at the time I thought it was a good layout and could be scaled down to suit.

http://webpages.charter.net/pjbolin...eparator - cyclone and thien baffle plans.pdf

The most important thing with a cyclone is to reduce the material speed but maintain the air volume through the cyclone.

To do that, the inlet needs to be made at least 1.5 times the size of the outlet.. And the vortex finder (dip tube) depth should be at least 60% below the top of the material inlet.. But remember.... Anything smaller than PM10 will go through any cyclone and block up the filter, even the famous Mr D can't beat that.. That's why one or two on here have blown theirs up..:funny:

Thanks for that :thumbs:
I have a Dust Deputy cyclone & it's excellent,I've managed to get hold of a drum with a lid & fancied making a Thien separator as it looked an easier build than a cyclone,a few plumbing fittings, a bit of board & a couple of bolts are all on stock so I'm hoping to make a start today.

It will be interesting to compare the 2 if I manage to get this one finished & working :pray:
 

Penpal

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Piece of cake Doug you will enjoy this task. I did I chose the separating plate and made it of Corian it is so slippery compared with my next choice ply.

Have fun.

Kind regards Peter.
 

naxie

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May 3, 2013
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Thats the one Doug!

As I said in the thread they are fun to make and they are a much easier to empty than dust sacks.

I would recommend making the router jig though it makes cutting out the circular bits verry easy, accurate and repeatable. Handy to have under the bench for other things too.

Have fun making it and please post a WIP if you don't mind.:pray:

I like making gadgets and jigs as much as I actually enjoy turning! :roflmao:
 

Neil

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Morning Doug,

I have had allot of experience with cyclone technology over the last 35 years as I work in a plant that relies on them for production. And trust me I have been on the end of quite a few when they block up as well.. Bear in mind that the cyclones I am used to are capable of holding 200t of product.. :down:

Most cyclones can be put in to one category, that is they separate the material from the airflow.. It doesn't matter what make they are that is all they have to do...

This link below is one that Bill Pentz had published in the woodturning magazine, at the time I thought it was a good layout and could be scaled down to suit.

http://webpages.charter.net/pjbolin...eparator - cyclone and thien baffle plans.pdf

The most important thing with a cyclone is to reduce the material speed but maintain the air volume through the cyclone.

To do that, the inlet needs to be made at least 1.5 times the size of the outlet.. And the vortex finder (dip tube) depth should be at least 60% below the top of the material inlet.. But remember.... Anything smaller than PM10 will go through any cyclone and block up the filter, even the famous Mr D can't beat that.. That's why one or two on here have blown theirs up..:funny:

Eamonn,

Understood most of that,but have the following questions:
1) Is there a relationship between the diameter of the drum and the in/out tubes and the suction capability?
2) Vortex Finder/dip tube? Is this the sucktion pipe in the middle?
3) PM10 ??????
4)The drop slot on these contraptions is 240 degrees of the drum, is this a convenient number or is there any logic to it other than to allow ease of assembly? Is there any truth to the logic that in theory the slot should go all the way round? Prsumably the slot should stop in the proximity of the inlet? And again presumably the models that have the inlet tube projecting down from the dustbin lid are less effective as the pipe is interferring with the circular airflow? Is this style more effective be it more cumbersome? Part 1-5 Thien Top Hat Dust Separator Build - YouTube f you have insomnia the dulcit tones will cure you for sure, I managed to get through all episodes in three minutes to get the drift of what he was doing!! Are there any crucial dimensions in this machine?

Caught me on the day before I go to Axminster in Nuneaton to buy some dust extraction kit so am quite interested in this concept!

Neil
 

silver

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Eamonn,

Understood most of that,but have the following questions:
1) Is there a relationship between the diameter of the drum and the in/out tubes and the suction capability?
2) Vortex Finder/dip tube? Is this the sucktion pipe in the middle?
3) PM10 ??????
4)The drop slot on these contraptions is 240 degrees of the drum, is this a convenient number or is there any logic to it other than to allow ease of assembly? Is there any truth to the logic that in theory the slot should go all the way round? Prsumably the slot should stop in the proximity of the inlet? And again presumably the models that have the inlet tube projecting down from the dustbin lid are less effective as the pipe is interferring with the circular airflow? Is this style more effective be it more cumbersome?

f you have insomnia the dulcit tones will cure you for sure, I managed to get through all episodes in three minutes to get the drift of what he was doing!! Are there any crucial dimensions in this machine?

Caught me on the day before I go to Axminster in Nuneaton to buy some dust extraction kit so am quite interested in this concept!

Neil


1) Is there a relationship between the diameter of the drum and the in/out tubes and the suction capability? Yes it will effect the suction and the velocity which will effect the material speed and drop out. the smaller the cyclone the faster material will spin and drop out smaller particles but it will cause a higher Differential pressure and then cause suction loss.

2) Vortex Finder/dip tube? Is this the sucktion pipe in the middle? Yep- See picture..

3) PM10 ?????? = Particle Matter.... in the air includes a mixture of solids and liquid droplets. Some particles are emitted directly; others are formed in the atmosphere when other pollutants react. Particles come in a wide range of sizes. Those less than 10 micrometers in diameter (PM10) are so small that they can get into the lungs, potentially causing serious health problems. Ten micrometers is smaller than the width of a single human hair. there is PM2.5 as well

4)The drop slot on these contraptions is 240 degrees of the drum, is this a convenient number or is there any logic to it other than to allow ease of assembly? This is the most effective position to generate the cyclone effect Is there any truth to the logic that in theory the slot should go all the way round? NOPrsumably the slot should stop in the proximity of the inlet?YES And again presumably the models that have the inlet tube projecting down from the dustbin lid are less effective as the pipe is interferring with the circular airflow? Is this style more effective be it more cumbersome?No, that is what effects the cyclone efficiency, the lower it is from the inlet the greater efficiency but it increases the differential pressure over the cyclone. so reducing the suction

if you have a look at the Wiki explanation Cyclonic separation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and the calculations that will give everyone a better understanding I'm sure.:ave_it: Oh, I did fall asleep on the you tube.. how boring.....:funny:

To be honest I have made some very crude contraptions over the years and the simplest ones seem to work just as effectively as the most complicated. If it was me I wouldn't bother with the Thien model, I would just fit a pipe on the drum at an angle to ensure that its started the cyclonic action fit the vortex tube low enough to minimise carry over then your job is on its way. With this layout you should get a 85 to 90% efficiency

The point I'm making is if you were sending thousands of tons per year through the cyclone then carry over (the material that gets through cyclone) is critical, so a few % improvement is worth doing. if we are just cleaning the shed up a few times a year :wink: then its not as critical.

Just for your information, you dont need a cyclone tapered section on your home model, that is only for dropping material out and not loosing suction. A flat bottomed drum will be as effective..

Hope that answers your questions Neil.. :tongue:
 

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