How toxic is wood when dry

[Dalboy]

We all read about different woods being toxic in various degrees for example yew and laburnum but does this toxicity exist when it is dry or is it just in the green state, or in some instances is it toxic no matter if it is green or dry.

Is there anything stating which wood are toxic when green, or it remains toxic when dry.

 

[Woody]

I dont know the answers Derek all I know is I have made bowls out of most toxic woods and used some of them for years just in my lounge I have a large spalted beech bowl several yew bowls and vases and also a laburnum bowl all of which get used on a regular bases and I'm still here but I do take precautions when turning and sanding them I learned very early to have extraction to wear protection especially for my lungs and to remove all traces of dust as soon as I have finished in my opinion which is based on a lifetime of experience once the wood is dry turned sealed it is safe also most of these woods have been used in furniture making for centuries
We just need to use a little bit of good old common sence

 

[Scots Bill]

Think Woody has hit the nail on the head. Some woods are claimed to give cancer (possibly) African blackwood for example. The two you mention are nasty. Spalted wood, the thought is the fungus stops growing when dried out, but the lungs are moist! Can the fungus regrow in there?
Protect your lungs mate, I have a powered respirator with the filter on a belt behind my back, betted than on the head! I have a chip extractor, they do not hold fine dust, the most dangerous, it goes through the bag. I have two, one in each half of my workshop, air cleaners. When weather permits, both doors open also.

 

[Penpal]

Wise to use precautions mate. Go Google where lists are of dangerous timbers, carcionogenic etc its a long list among them are some of my favourites.

An example if I may is Huon Pine Our club president at that time a world authority in Canberra CSIRO (Commonwealth Scientific Research Organisation) was using Huon Pine extract as an artificial Pheramone to attract insects, he had to stop when they learned it was cancer producing. Apparently thats how the tree reaches three thousand years resisting , the smell of this tree cut is mesmeric. Nearly all of the Rosewoods are considered dangerous. Treat CA this way as well the way Woody does. Another of my favourites is Tasmanian Blackwood it has a very heavy rep because the dust has hooks that retain in the Cilia of the lungs.

Be aware but try not to be afraid.

Peter.

 

[Terry Q]

You know what they say about Cocobolo. Those who are allergic and those who are going to be allergic. A friend of mine can't be in a shop with Cocobolo dust. He gets an itchy rash almost immediately. No wood is safe. Someone somewhere will have a reaction.

The same can be said about "food safe finish". Someone somewhere will have a reaction. Most of us are playing the odds.

Use common sense and a little caution and you should be ok.

 

[Pierre]

how about here wood toxicity

PG

 

[Dalboy]

I am talking in general guys but thank you all the same I have protection for turning any woods

 

[Penpal]

Aware is important we lost a guy in awful circumstances in our Wood Guild I could not either forsee it or think of a worse outcome. He turned a prodigeous amount of bowls etc in a small area, the cancer was furious.

Peter.

 

[Pierre]

Following on from my link above with the toxicity list, I don't think that you can ever classify wood as dry since 'dry' wood ie that used for cabinet making and pens etc is normally at 12-18% humidity anyway so once it has gone past the areas of dead skin on your body then there is always a risk of whichever part of it that is toxic or an allergen affecting you.

PG

 

[Bammer]

I had a little look into this when making a cradle for my Grandson

Was thinking of Yew but would want him turning round and sucking on a spindle.

Something to think about, would you make a chopping board out of yew or laburnum ? ... wet and in contact with food .... I wouldn't

 

[wm460]

But isn't living toxic?

 

[Phil Dart]

I think there is a world of difference between the dangers involved in making a piece and the dangers involved in a finished piece. We all know (or should know) about protection in the workshop, buy I'm not sure that translates directly to the risks in using a bowl.

An example above was given that african blackwood is carcinogenic. I take your word for it - but it's the wood of choice for orchestral woodwind instruments and also bagpipes. Given they are actually shoving the stuff in their mouths I don't see the London Philharmonic Orchestra or the Scots Dragoon Guards keeling over with any greater incidence of cancer than any other group of people. I think Woody has it right. Take precautions in the workshop and apply common sense elsewhere.

 

[Penpal]

We look forward to the Edinburgh Tatoo each year with their cast of so many blowing their hearts out all year and then I support your theory Phil, millions of early pianos prove another point.

Peter.

 

[Pierre]

I think there is a world of difference between the dangers involved in making a piece and the dangers involved in a finished piece. We all know (or should know) about protection in the workshop, buy I'm not sure that translates directly to the risks in using a bowl.

An example above was given that african blackwood is carcinogenic. I take your word for it - but it's the wood of choice for orchestral woodwind instruments and also bagpipes. Given they are actually shoving the stuff in their mouths I don't see the London Philharmonic Orchestra or the Scots Dragoon Guards keeling over with any greater incidence of cancer than any other group of people. I think Woody has it right. Take precautions in the workshop and apply common sense elsewhere.

Whilst I agree with you in the main and appreciate your previous employment, aren't most mouthpieces made of a plastic or a false wood so as to maintain the main chamber shape? and I haven't noticed the Cold Stream guards nor the Royal Marine band chewing their mouthpieces (perhaps they don't feed the Scots Dragoons).

On a more serious note I tend to make anything that gets involved with chewing (babies' rattles )or carving out of the fruitwood species or the neutral woods such as Beech or Ash, simply because I prefer to be safe than sorry even though I know I will be dead before the customer notices a link.

Oak has proven to have beneficial aspects especially when soaked in wine.

But I also believe that woods can also impart toxicity based on your environment simply because if for example you live in a beech area you get immunised over time by the amount of beech dust in the air, but react to south American woods etc etc around the world. Also the greatest problem in my personal opinion is not so much the toxicity as the potential for pneumoconiosis (or an accumulation of dust in the lungs). Thus I have a workshop filter, a chip collector and a mask (and I still take shortcuts in a hurry and only wear glasses in a demo !!).

PG

 

[Pierre]

It was just as I posted the reply to Phil above that I remembered a conversation that I had during a demo yesterday. I had asked a parent to move his child from straight ahead of me to the right hand end of my demo bench; when he asked why I explained that not only was the child in the line of fire if the block came off the lathe but that there was an invisible cloud of dust also directly in front and behind the piece which I preferred that his child didn't breathe in. He then pointed out the delivery lorry which had been parked outside the shop entrance, 2 metres away which had been running for the last 10 minute venting its exhaust into the doors, with a lift of one eye!! He was probably right... But I still moved the kid!!

 

[Phil Dart]

Yes, you're right in part Pierre. Clarinet mouthpieces tend to be made from ebonite (ooooh, where have i heard that word before?) but bagpipe mouthpieces are the wood itself. The point is though that there is a world of difference between the fine dust particles of say a piece if yew, or padauk or african blackwood floating around a workshop, getting in your mouth, eyes, lungs, nose, to a bowl made from the same stuff sitting on your coffee table.

Your point though, about choosing an innocuous wood fit for purpose is well made and well taken, and is an example of the common sense that Woody is advocating and I am agreeing with.

(Some peoples bowls do get up my nose, but that's a different issue.)

 

[Penpal]

To advocate for wooden bowls to eat off, drink using reminds me of standing at the Roman Baths in Bath being lectured how the rich inhabitants died of lead poisoning and in this day how soldered lead joints in copper pipes instead using high silver content metal. Not everyone is typical in their reaction to most things. Dodging around most musical instruments Piano keys were everywhere and old instruments treasured.

To each his own.

Peter.

 

[wm460]

Yes, you're right in part Pierre. Clarinet mouthpieces tend to be made from ebonite (ooooh, where have i heard that word before?) but bagpipe mouthpieces are the wood itself. The point is though that there is a world of difference between the fine dust particles of say a piece if yew, or padauk or african blackwood floating around a workshop, getting in your mouth, eyes, lungs, nose, to a bowl made from the same stuff sitting on your coffee table.

Your point though, about choosing an innocuous wood fit for purpose is well made and well taken, and is an example of the common sense that Woody is advocating and I am agreeing with.

(Some peoples bowls do get up my nose, but that's a different issue.)

I better not post the bowls I have recently turned.

 

[Woody]

I think when you are going to make anything out of any type of wood there are dangers the one we seem to be most afraid of is if the wood goes airborne yet that is the least dangerous how often have you had a bowl go airborne say in a year now compare that to how often does the dust you create go airborne and how often do you not give it a thought and take no precautions there is more chance of those fine particles killing you off than an airborne bow.
Also you have to consider what you are going to make and out of what a baby's rattle has been mentioned which all baby's will chew on so you need a known safe wood for that a fruit bowl is only going to be a container no sucking or chewing sealed properly not even any contact with the wood so dose that make any wood safe for that purpose
This is a subject that has been tossed back and forth for years and will continue to be a topic of great discussion and debate even arguments in my workshop I am responsible for everything that comes out from there so I like to think I have done my best 1/ to protect myself from the dangers of well everything from fine particles to machines 2/ protect anyone who enters by warning them of any dangers involved 3/ protect the people who will end up with whatever I make by applying again good old fashioned bloody common sence an old saying if in doubt leave it out Happy turning

 

[Scots Bill]

I think treen, for food, was often made from sycamore, made our rolling pin from it. That was before I had a lathe! Hand carved, still does the job, and much pastry later we are still alive.