Kitless Questions

• You definitely don't need a metal lathe. I do all my kitless on my little wood lathe, I'm quite happy with it, it is precise enough.
• Expensive taps and dies are double or triple start. They are a plus because if you use them you need less turns to screw the cap, but they are not at all necessary, they also have cons. IMHO, start with regular cheap taps, you will have plenty of work with them to set up everything, then you may decide to change for multistart. You do need a special tap for the nib to section, but it is not so expensive.
• I would suggest to start with M9 and 10 (section to barrel), 12 and 13 or 14 (barrel to cap).
• If you use a El Grande section, you will not make a kitless any more, and you'll loose the advantage of it: with a real kitless, YOU decide the material you use (is El Grande section made of ebonite?), dimensions and design.

Penpal said:

Look carefully at the MIK from Australia pens where he uses known pen kits to establish his own style.

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Pierre--- said:

Hi Peter mate, any link?



I do agree with you from the maker point of view. It is very possible to develop one's style from kit parts (and I make a lot of kits for the reasons you mentioned). But Ian's question was "I'm starting to get asked for fully bespoke pens with ebonite sections". So it is an user point of view. As Ian, I have been asked many times: "Could you make me a pen with a section made of... (horn, ebonite, galalith, celluloid, casein, whatever) with this particular shape and this precise diameter?" After saying ten times "No Sir, I can't because I use kits and I don't know how to make a section", I learnt to thread (this is the point!) and to answer "With pleasure".
And get plenty of $£€££$$£.

So of course making a whole pen from scratch could be surrealistic, but there is a midway between that and using kits parts to make a kitless or even an own-style kit. When you know how to thread, you are more able to answer customers wishes. And to have fun in the bargain. :congratulatory:

Peter, thanks for your post stimulating discussion!

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Pierre--- said:

I'll try to answer your questions in due order, according to my experience. Others could think another way...

• You definitely don't need a metal lathe. I do all my kitless on my little wood lathe, I'm quite happy with it, it is precise enough.
• Expensive taps and dies are double or triple start. They are a plus because if you use them you need less turns to screw the cap, but they are not at all necessary, they also have cons. IMHO, start with regular cheap taps, you will have plenty of work with them to set up everything, then you may decide to change for multistart. You do need a special tap for the nib to section, but it is not so expensive.
• I would suggest to start with M9 and 10 (section to barrel), 12 and 13 or 14 (barrel to cap).
• If you use a El Grande section, you will not make a kitless any more, and you'll loose the advantage of it: with a real kitless, YOU decide the material you use (is El Grande section made of ebonite?), dimensions and design.

So I would advise to buy some cheap acrylic blanks to allow for trials and errors (you will encounter a lot!), a #6 Bock nib with its tap, a clip and a converter from Phil at Beaufort, make plans for a section around it, for a barrel and a cap, and up you go!

Happy turning!

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Burt25 said:

Thank you for your response Pierre- my observation from dealing with fountain pen connoisseurs is that metal sections are generally frowned upon- I assume this is because from a purists point of view metal sections do not feature in traditional fountain pen manufacture? Also I think that kit pens are perceived as 'heavy' I've had a couple of potential customers equire about weight and when I confirmed that was the last I heard from them.

One thing I have gleaned from my discussions with collectors is that they will pay 3-4 times the price of a kit produced pen to buy a quality kitless pen. To me that make the investment in tools worthwhile to a) Learn a new skill b)have satisfaction in making a pen of my own design and c)being well paid for doing so.

With regards taps, I note that Beaufort sell Start, Intermediate and Bottoming taps but in the many online videos I have watched most only seem to use one tap- is there a need for having the set if 3?

One final question- have you combined wood and ebonite in a kitless?- I assume this involves gluing an ebonite insert into the wood blank for the purpose of tapping the treads?

Thanks
Ian

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silver said:

I like the part of "metal frowned upon"
Try making fittings out of a bit of scrap metal called Gold... yep, it's metal and for the sake of connoisseurs Ian is fully understanding them in the first place.

I agree with Pierre--- all the way and with what he has said.

The main reason for a set of three taps is that they are a start thread, intermediate and bottomimg.

A start thread is exactly that, for starting with in the first place. It's a nice easy taper and starts the thread right each time without causing too much stress on the material or taps.

The intermediate is often the tap that is used as the one and only tap which has a less taper than the starter tap.

The bottoming tap, is exactly that. It has no taper. If you want to get the thread completely down the whole of an enclosed plug thread then this is the one.

As you see each one has a specific task, the purest will say use all three and never miss one out.

However I am not the purest and the intermediate one will do for most of the tasks required for pen turning. if you have no experience in threading or tapping then you may well struggle in some metals.

With an intermediate for all tasks then you will need to do the threading very slowly, do a half turn and then back it off a quarter turn. Once it's in fully then you could do half turn and back half turn (or until you hear the thread you are cutting break) you will often get a feeling of a "release" when backing off.

It will be trial and error and practice makes perfect.

What I would do is invest in a metric fine set of taps and dies, you will be surprised what you can actually do with a set of them. My dad started turning and making pens many years ago using imperial taps and dies.

They still worked really well and to be honest I would often wonder if the end user really knew what thread is actually on the pen in the first place.

The only specific taps you need is the ones Pierre spoke about. Specific for feeders such as Bock.

As for wood and ebonite, you can thread wood as well. The connoisseurs you speak about may well not like the idea of glue

All in all if you should aim to make the whole of the pen, with the exception of the nib and feeder. That is including the clip, centre band.

Hope that helps.

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rayf6604 said:

Don't forget to use some lubricant when cutting threads. A spray cooking oil is fine but I use WD40 cutting lube


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Burt25 said:

my observation from dealing with fountain pen connoisseurs is that metal sections are generally frowned upon- I assume this is because from a purists point of view metal sections do not feature in traditional fountain pen manufacture? Also I think that kit pens are perceived as 'heavy'

With regards taps, I note that Beaufort sell Start, Intermediate and Bottoming taps but in the many online videos I have watched most only seem to use one tap- is there a need for having the set if 3?

One final question- have you combined wood and ebonite in a kitless?- I assume this involves gluing an ebonite insert into the wood blank for the purpose of tapping the treads?

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Burt25 said:

I've also been asked if I do custom nib grinds and obviously thats whole other ball game!

I think I will start off by having a go at making a section to take a bock #5 nib and work from there. Once and IF I've mastered the threading then I may look at getting the triple start tap and die so I can try and go the whole hog.

Any advice on holding the piece to shape the outside? I have a small Axminster Precision Pro lathe which has an ER20 Collet and was thinking of making a number of threaded mandrels out of say Corian to slip into a 12mm Collet? I assume as far as wood is concerned, close grained / dense woods like Ebony, African Blackwood etc will potentially thread successfully?

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Phil Dart said:

Before you start splashing money around, get a good pencil and eraser, and spend as much time as you need to in order to work out your sizes and principles.

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Phil Dart said:

Ian - lots of helpful answers and tips already, but let me see if I can contribute, to help get you started.

The goal in the first instance is to establish your principles and techniques without the vast expense, therefore if at the beginning you can get by with what you already own, or you can buy in economically in order to find out what is what, so be it - you can always upgrade to better and/or more desirable tools in the future.

In the first instance, to arrive at sizes for all your components, you need to understand that absolutely everything is governed by the need to get an ink converter in and out of your barrel, and that every single other dimension on your design stems from that. Therefore you need to start with the inside of the pen and work outwards, rather than worrying in the first place what size cap thread you should be using or is this drill bit better than that.

Ink converters vary - the cheap plastic ones tend to be narrower, the better, metal sealed ones are wider - the Beaufort converter is about 7.8mm. Therefore the minimum inside diameter of your nib/barrel connector needs to be a minimum of 8mm. That diameter translates directly to the outside diameter of the connector, which in turn translates directly to the male thread of the section, the inside diameter of the section being governed by the size of nib you choose to work with.

The outside of the nib connector is also relevant the the cap thread, and although I realise that what I have just written may be absolute double dutch on first reading it through, reading it again until you can relate it to the different parts will show you that the cap thread is directly related to both the converter and the nib size. Before you spend a single penny on tools, you should sit down with pencil and paper, and a good eraser, and work it all out. The wall thicknesses of your components needs to take into account that in some places there may be male and female threads that coincide in exactly the same places on either side of the wall, so calculate the minor diameters of each thread too, and take those into account.

To begin with, as has already been mentioned, the only specialist tool you will absolutely have to invest in is a thread tap, or a set of thread taps for your chosen size of nib. They won't go to waste if your design evolves over time because the size of the nib housing is never going to change, beyond whether its a size 5 or a size 6. Everything else can be bought on the cheap to start out - you are only making prototypes and establishing principles to begin with.

Touching on metal sections briefly, there is no rationale whatsoever for disliking them per se, other than some people feel they offer less grip than say an ebonite section. It is also true that a metal to metal cap thread can lead to it coming unscrewed in the pocket. But there are plenty of metal sections out there on extremely expensive commercially available pens, Karas Kustoms and some Kawecos being particularly popular examples, so don't be fooled into thinking that its a definite no-no.

Cap threads on the other hand are slightly different, and the fashion these days is that a multi start cap thread is more desirable than a single start because it takes fewer twists to remove or replace the cap. Most kit pens do it in somewhere between one and two twists, but a quick study of the classic marques in the fountain pen world will show you that they all tend to be between two to three twists. (which is why the Mistral does it in two and a half twists in case you are wondering). Therefore, ultimately you perhaps should invest in multi start thread cutters for your cap thread, which frankly are very expensive (and I'm sure you realise how I know this) but to begin with, just use a cheap single start set, because again, at this stage, you are only establishing your principles.

There is a working drawing of a Bock size 5 housing on the Beaufort Ink website, on the same page as the taps, and I can send you a drawing for the Bock size 6 housing if you need one.

I hope that helps, but as I said above, before you start splashing money around, get a good pencil and eraser, and spend as much time as you need to in order to work out your sizes and principles. Splash the money around once you know what you are doing.

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Pierre--- said:

If I compare with the last ones I made with a #6 nib (see here), OD are 10mm (section), 13 (barrel) and 14.5 (cap), and weight is 20g (barrel + cap). I think 15 is not too big, because you will be amazed by the low weight and comfort in writing. Just weigh a kit to compare!

With a #5 you can make a thinner section (say around 9mm), you are right. But I don't think it can give you more wall thickness when drilling / threading: you'll still need room for the converter and use a 12mm thread for cap/barrel. But do make a sketch with #5, then you will be able to decide.

Another measurement, very important in my opinion is the step between cap to barrel (i.e. the difference of OD), for the appearance, the look of the pen. To big is clumsy, to little is not well defined, in between is OK, no step (same OD) can be OK too: but what is your correct difference? The step (if any) between section and barrel is also important.

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