Melamine lacquer problem

[SorinS]

Hi everybody,
I started trying a new finishing method, with melamine lacquer, instead of CA finishing. I followed several tutorials, equally from this forum and from other internet sources. I sanded the pen up to 800 grit, for each stage I also sanded with the grain. At the end I faced this problem: the finished surface has marks across the grain, just as they are after CA finishing. If in CA case these marks will disappear after micromesh sanding, for melamine lacquer I have no clue how to get rid of them, as there are less layers (I applied max. 8 layers) and they are very thin. I tried polishing the melamine lacquer with a Meguiars polish, equivalent to a 12k micromesh, but the result was that I almost removed the lacquer in my attempt of removing the marks.
I need your advice: should I apply more lacquer and, then, trying to polish, or there is another method to apply it without such marks? Thank you!

 

[silver]

Hi Sorin,
The fine lines will be from each layer you apply of the melamine., they will get worse with each layer.

I rarely sand above 400 grit to start with as that gives the surface melamine a good key layer. (Depends on the wood)

I moved to melamine a few years ago no and many complain about finishing and removing the layers, that’s mainly because you haven’t given the melamine enough time to harden. It needs at least 24 hours before you can use a grit type polish to take out the lines. (Or the UV method above)
There are as many ways to finish a pen as there are turners.

My options (it’s only the way I finish my pens)

Acrylics are sand up to 1200 with the lathe running and horizontally with the lathe stopped on every grade. Final grade is horizontally only.

Then use Yorkshire grit, microfine and then a final polish with any car polish you fancy.

There is a little trick you can do to speed up the hardening of the lacquer ! I use a UV nail dryer that has the four UV lights in and place it above the pen for a few minutes (rotate the lathe by hand while it’s on) each layer added, then I sand very lightly lengthways with the lathe stopped with a scotch fine cloth to take out most of the lines.
As above, I always finish with YG fine, (which looks like I’m choosing something else when this tub runs out) to take out the lines and polish to a shine.

Woods and other organics.

Finish to 400/600 (depending on the material) then melamine lacquer using a slightly adapted Phil Dart method. For a high gloss leave overnight or 24hours to allow the lacquer to harden. Then Yorkshire grit microfine to bring the finish to a high gloss.

Wood/acrylic mix (so Called Hybrid blanks)

Sand to 600, lathe stopped and horizontally on all grades. Then use melamine lacquer using the slightly adapted Phil Dart method. Tend not to use Yorkshire grit on these as I have found that occasionally I have had residue get between where the wood meets acrylic and leave a fine white line. Which is a bugger to remedy.

 

[howsitwork?]

Sorin

I thin the melamine50:50 with cellulose thinners to allow it more drying time and the lines “ flow out “, like with gloss paint . I also use a VERY FINE flat brush to apply it keeping the brush moving. If needed dip the brush in cellulose thinners and apply as SMALL touch to any lines whilst the finish is tacky. This sometimes works but only sometimes.

I think Eamonns method statements above are good though , especially for hybrid blanks .

 

[SorinS]

Hi Sorin,
The fine lines will be from each layer you apply of the melamine., they will get worse with each layer.

I rarely sand above 400 grit to start with as that gives the surface melamine a good key layer. (Depends on the wood)

I moved to melamine a few years ago no and many complain about finishing and removing the layers, that’s mainly because you haven’t given the melamine enough time to harden. It needs at least 24 hours before you can use a grit type polish to take out the lines. (Or the UV method above)
There are as many ways to finish a pen as there are turners.

My options (it’s only the way I finish my pens)

Acrylics are sand up to 1200 with the lathe running and horizontally with the lathe stopped on every grade. Final grade is horizontally only.

Then use Yorkshire grit, microfine and then a final polish with any car polish you fancy.

There is a little trick you can do to speed up the hardening of the lacquer ! I use a UV nail dryer that has the four UV lights in and place it above the pen for a few minutes (rotate the lathe by hand while it’s on) each layer added, then I sand very lightly lengthways with the lathe stopped with a scotch fine cloth to take out most of the lines.
As above, I always finish with YG fine, (which looks like I’m choosing something else when this tub runs out) to take out the lines and polish to a shine.

Woods and other organics.

Finish to 400/600 (depending on the material) then melamine lacquer using a slightly adapted Phil Dart method. For a high gloss leave overnight or 24hours to allow the lacquer to harden. Then Yorkshire grit microfine to bring the finish to a high gloss.

Wood/acrylic mix (so Called Hybrid blanks)

Sand to 600, lathe stopped and horizontally on all grades. Then use melamine lacquer using the slightly adapted Phil Dart method. Tend not to use Yorkshire grit on these as I have found that occasionally I have had residue get between where the wood meets acrylic and leave a fine white line. Which is a bugger to remedy.

Thanks Eamonn, I'll try as you advised!

 

[PensFromNo11]

I use Phil Darts method as he explains in the resources on this forum, its simple and it works really well for me.

https://penturners.co.uk/index.php?resources/achieving-success-with-melamine-as-a-pen-finish-tutorial.3/

 

[SorinS]

I use Phil Darts method as he explains in the resources on this forum, its simple and it works really well for me.

https://penturners.co.uk/index.php?resources/achieving-success-with-melamine-as-a-pen-finish-tutorial.3/

Hi Darren, I followed exactly that method, however, unfortunately, I got those nasty marks and now I try to figure out why and how to avoid this in the future.

 

[PensFromNo11]

Hi Darren, I followed exactly that method, however, unfortunately, I got those nasty marks and now I try to figure out why and how to avoid this in the future.

I just checked a couple of my pens under a 40x loupe and yes i can see some very tiny lines (definitely cant see them without the loupe with my eyes at least), what I mostly see is the wood grain which made me think are you possibly putting on too many layers? or too thick? I do go for more fo a satin shine rather than a high gloss.

 

[Hallelujahal]

My 2p…I’ve tried Uncle Phil’s method, worked to a point…but I needed to cut back on coats and or utilise thinners …I now have a formula and never put more than eight coats on.

 

[Bill Mooney]

I use Phil’s method applying 5 coats and it works for me. I wonder if you lathe is too fast and the melamine is drying too fast due to heat . I use 900 rpm and allows a short time between coats and buffing. Although I can’t see my finish I have some experienced pen Turners who check my finish just to make sure my finish is spot on and I get the thumbs up.

 

[Phil Dart]

I use Phil's method. It works for me.
Don't dilute the melamine, and don't drag it out too much when you apply it off the tissue. A quick end-to-end a couple of times is all that is needed, them immediately burnish it with a clean bit of tissue. I've bnever found radial marks with a naked eye, and like my pen customers, I never inspect it with a loupe

 

[SorinS]

Well, thank you all and each of you folks, I'm sure each advice you gave me works very well for that respective guy.
Although I've seen here contradictory techniques I know you are all well-intentioned, however, I feel I owe you some feedback after few weeks of trials and errors.
So, I started again applying melamine in two different ways: as per Phil's method and another one, with the lathe stopped and applying with the grain only. It's true that the second method gave me better results in terms of having or not those fine lines and how bad they are. They are still there, but much more finer than in Phil's method.
Now, burnishing.... Some said apply burnish immediately after melamine, some others said to wait few seconds to allow melamine dry. I found that waiting to dry is not a good idea! ;) If melamine got dry, it's hard to remove the lines, no matter in which direction they are, radial or longitudinal. So, long story short: I went with Phil's method, from start to finish, no deviation. The lathe was running at 800rpm, applying the melamine, immediately after I burnished it at 1200 rpm. Continued with some Hempshire high gloss. Still have some lines, visible with a magnification loupe (don't ask me why I'm doing this, I'm probably some sort of masochist), still feel the surface a little bit uneven under my fingers and not exactly that satin like as is mentioned it should be and still a little bit of matteish surface, even after polishing with wax (and before, yes). It has, indeed, a more natural touch, however, far from what I expected.
Conclusion: I'm sure is just me in all this unsuccessful attempt, I still miss something and I have no clue what (perhaps just my expectations); when (and if) I'll be in the right mood to give it a new try, I'll do it, otherwise I'll stay with my trustful CA finish, even it looks not very natural, at least it's very even :) . Another try would be with some oils, no idea now which ones, probably tung or...????

 

[SorinS]

The lathe was running at 800rpm, applying the melamine

Sorry for that, it's actually 200rpm!

 

[akirk]

I think we all have our favourite methods - for me:
- acrylic, sand up to 12,000 job done
- wood - sand to 600, then through the three polishing and buffing wheels - done.
gives a very good natural finish.
I have tried CA / melamine, but find it too fussy