Advice on appropriate retail price for TM Alpha

[Buckeye]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Phil wrote above. Do not undervalue your work

Peter

 

[Sgreen]

I have seen, on FleeBay, people selling their handmade slimline pens for £5 and other kits I don't recognise for £10. In my humble opinion, for the most part, the pens are turned ok and the finish is nice but not great. This undervalue pricing affects those turners and crafters who charge what I see is the correct price. Why would a customer buy a hand made pen for £50 if they get one similar for a tenner?
Ok so the quality on the under-priced pen may be lacking compared to the pricier pen but will a customer see the value in a better turned pen with a lasting finish?
All pen makers and crafters should charge the correct price for their wares and not undervalue their art.
I charge £10 for a slim-line kit made pen with a basic cheap ebay bought pen blank, and yes I have sold a few. I would rather not sell any than de-value my hard work. I haven't yet had the confidence in my skill to sell a more expensive kit, but I will soon.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant (it is a bit) :pray:

Simon

 

[Bammer]

I charge £10 for a slim-line kit made pen with a basic cheap ebay bought pen blank, and yes I have sold a few. I would rather not sell any than de-value my hard work. I haven't yet had the confidence in my skill to sell a more expensive kit, but I will soon.

Sorry if this sounds like a rant (it is a bit) :pray:

Simon

This is exactly why it is so difficult to add a formula to work out a price for a pen

Using the Ian's post as a guide ... the kit he used was £11 ... your slimline say was £2.50 ... his sale price was £67 .... so take change the kit costs and yours should be £58.50 ....

Same time requirements ( 2 part pen ) ok maybe a cheaper blank .... but everything else the same ... and you sell yours for £10


Very difficult to get it right.

 

[Dalboy]

Another factor that many forget is that because a blank maybe free to you still add it as if you had to pay for it I do this with any of my turnings when I get a bowl blank I look at turning suppliers to see what they charge for the same sized blank

 

[Lons]

All pen makers and crafters should charge the correct price for their wares and not undervalue their art.
I charge £10 for a slim-line kit made pen with a basic cheap ebay bought pen blank, and yes I have sold a few. I would rather not sell any than de-value my hard work.

I think those two sentences are a contradiction Simon and personally I believe that selling slimlines at £10 is actually undervaluing, you need to increase that by 50%. IMO (Who said this subject is a minefield? ).

I don't sell pens for a living, I'm retired and I don't make or sell many at the minute but I have done and even in the frozen North that's achievable. A tenner isn't worth much these days and if people pay pennies then they expect to get poor quality items which they will be careless with and then one of two things will happen. i.e. They'll come back and complain so you fix it even though their fault or worse, they'll throw it away and will tell all their friends about the "rubbish" they bought and you'll get an undeserved bad reputation.

It doesn't matter what you make or do there will always be those who undercut you, the hard part is to accept that and ignore it but rather research your market and pitch your product realistically emphasizing quality, uniqueness or other features. You can always offer discounts for whatever reason you like but it can be very difficult to increase the prices.

I had the same scenario with my business where cowboys abound, I built a reputation for quality work, 100% reliability and honesty. My rates were at the high end and I insisted on providing materials from which I made a profit, I always had more work than I could handle and customers who waited months, if they didn't like it, I turned down the job. They got what they paid and I got a loyal customer base and regular repeat work.
Those who sell on ebay are targeting a different market, one which is largely price driven where we presumably are selling to someone who will handle the pen which is a very tactile object, they will easily see that it took skill and care to make rather than a bit of tat!

Just my twopennerth

 

[wm460]

Guess every thing has been said, nothing more to add.

 

[Walter]

It doesn't matter what you make or do there will always be those who undercut you, the hard part is to accept that and ignore it but rather research your market and pitch your product realistically emphasizing quality, uniqueness or other features. You can always offer discounts for whatever reason you like but it can be very difficult to increase the prices.

The important thing to acknowledge is that you cannot change the way oher people choose to price their products. You also cannot change the way people value thier time. Some hobbyists may even consider the value of their time is zero, because they are spending it pursuing an enjoyable hobby. When that irritating chap comes up and tells you he (or his granded) could make one of those for half that price he is probably right. What he could not do is run a sustainable business by selling at that price.

As Bob says, your marketing should reflect the reality of the market and if you don't want to undervalue your work then you need to choose your market carefully.

 

[Phil Dart]

A rhetorical question - Lamy versus Montblanc. Ok that's unfair. Pelikan versus Montblanc - which is the better quality?

Before you pepper the place with your answers, let me tell you, there are only two ways to make a pen. If the medium you are using will hold a thread, manufacturers will generally cut threads directly into that medium and assemble the pen. It's the same approach you would take if you were making a so called kitless pen. That's method one.

Method two is if your medium will not hold a thread - you then drill out the centre and insert a tube, into which components are then pressed. All manufacturers employ both methods to make their pens, depending on the material they are making them from. What differs between manufacturers is the bit that makes it write - the nib or the refill.

So I ask again - Pelikan or Montblanc? Montblancs cost a fortune so they are bound to be the very best surely? Hmmm. I suggest that in a comparison like that, it is down to nothing more than perception. To all intents and purposes there is no difference in the quality between those two whatsoever, but Montblanc have maneuvered us into making us think theirs is better, simply by charging more and through canny marketing.

In other words, if you make pens and price them cheaply, they are perceived as being a poorer quality than the same pen being sold at a higher price. Given that we all make pens by hand, and that very fact is a large part of OUR marketing, why is it that many turners will allow potential customers to think they are not very well made, or poor quality, or not worth having, by undercharging for them. I'm not suggesting that we all start pricing along the same lines as Montblanc, but at the same time, I don't think that we should be pricing them along the same lines as Bic either.

And anyway, who is making more profit - the turner who sells 3 pens for £5 each, or the turner who sells 1 pen for £15? The person selling 3 pens might gloat that he's had the better result, but frankly, he's wrong.

 

[Vic Perrin]

I personally don't sell a great deal of pens in fact I give more away than I sell. I am purely a hobbist and enjoy the time I spend in the shed doing what I want to do and at the pace I want to work at. The only criteria I set in pricing my pens is that I price them at least twice what it costs me for the materials used in making them. If I was running my woodturning as a business I would have gone bankrupt years ago . I would love to get £65 to £75 for one of my better fountain pens but unfortunately in my market place those sort of prices are dreamland. For the amount of stuff that I actually sell I'm happy with my prices which allow me to buy a few more bits and partially helps cover the cost of my hobby. Before taking up woodturning I was a keen fisherman and I used to compete in the match fishing arena, now that was a hobby where you watched your bank balance deplete. Walter is spot on with his calculations for pricing pens and for what he says about adjusting prices to suit yor market.

 

[Walter]

If you make pens and price them cheaply, they are perceived as being a poorer quality than the same pen being sold at a higher price. Given that we all make pens by hand, and that very fact is a large part of OUR marketing, why is it that many turners will allow potential customers to think they are not very well made, or poor quality, or not worth having, by undercharging for them.

Not necessarily always so. Yes, flogging slimlines for a fiver in the local market does nothing for the image of pen making but I cannot imagine that anyone who receives one of Vic's pens perceives them as poor quality whether they receive them as a gift or pay a comparatively low price for them.

I am purely a hobbist and enjoy the time I spend in the shed doing what I want to do and at the pace I want to work at. The only criteria I set in pricing my pens is that I price them at least twice what it costs me for the materials used in making them. If I was running my woodturning as a business I would have gone bankrupt years ago.

The thinking and pricing rationale are completely different for someone like Vic who is enjoying a hobby and really couldn't care if it costs him money compared with someone who has chosen to make a business out of selling pens. He is not undervaluing his time, he is simply valuing it in a different way. That does have an impact on the market but that is life. Lidl and Aldi have an impact on Tesco and ASDA, they adjust their marketing accordingly. Those of us who want to make a profit from selling pens must do likewise and ensure, through our own pricing and marketing strategies, that our products are seen as worth paying extra for.

 

[rayf6604]

I've struggled to sell the Alpha. I made 4 this time last year and I've sold one for 39.95! The price is very much down to where they are being sold. I've asked many crafters and one thing they all agre on is how difficult it is to charge for the time taken because invariably it's likely to price your product too high.

For those who have read my posts of late will know I'm going to live on a narrowboat, later this year in fact. Next year I'm going to have a small 12ft workshop boat made to pull behind the main boat. It's going to cost over 12k to have made and equipped but it's something I want to do. My point is, in business terms, you would add an element for the cost of your workshop, equipment, heat, light etc. I fully expect I won't ever truly make any money from the workshop for many long years. Be good fun though woodturning on the side of the canals

 

[Walter]

The price is very much down to where they are being sold. I've asked many crafters and one thing they all agre on is how difficult it is to charge for the time taken because invariably it's likely to price your product too high.

The mention of the word "craft" immediately halves the price you can expect to achieve. In the minds of many people craft = amateur = not needing to make a profit. We all know this is far from the truth but sadly it is the way a lot of people think.

"Lets go to the craft fair in the village and buy a cheap home made pen rather than paying full price for a proper one at the pen shop" Sound familiar?

The narrow-boat thing sounds like great fun. A bit too adventurous for me but I hope you enjoy it.

 

[Dalboy]

I know that some may shoot me down for adding this into the equation. But if you don't sell on line then you may need either a corner of a shop or a stall at craft fairs to sell them and that also costs money so any some of the profit is needed for all the bits associated with going to them.

 

[Walter]

I know that some may shoot me down for adding this into the equation. But if you don't sell on line then you may need either a corner of a shop or a stall at craft fairs to sell them and that also costs money so any some of the profit is needed for all the bits associated with going to them.

Good point Derek, I rent space in a craft gallery so that has to be factored into my costing.

 

[Vic Perrin]

Good point Derek, I rent space in a craft gallery so that has to be factored into my costing.

Perhaps you should move from the Craft Gallery to a proper Pen Shop Walter

 

[Walter]

I just remembered a similar discussion in a Facebook group where a pen maker and silversmith called Matthew Davis shared his write up on the subject with the members. It makes interesting reading, shows a different way of thinking about pen making as a business and identifies some costs you may not have even thought of. He is happy for it to be shared so here is a link to a copy of it:

How to price your work by Matthew Davis

 

[Dalboy]

Perhaps you should move from the Craft Gallery to a proper Pen Shop Walter

What and have to employ an accountant

 

[Walter]

What and have to employ an accountant

Not at the prices they charge.

 

[fingwe]

I read a lot of people on here saying that 'the market here won't pay more than x for a pen'. In that case, change your market. Trying to make a business from selling at craft fairs is never going to work. And no, I don't mean you have to move, the internet allows us to market our items far beyond our geographical vicinity.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it's possible. Create a quality item which people want to buy - either because it is niche, it is collectable, it makes a great gift, or just because it is lovely, target your market and put it out there. Market it properly - this takes a lot of time and effort, but if you want to run a business, you have to do it.

I know that a lot of people just want to get a bit of money back to help cover the costs of their hobby, and that's fine. But if you want to make a business out of it, you have to treat it like a business and put as much time into making it a business, as actually making the pens.

 

[L33]

I think the only time you can really charge for your time is when a customer wants you to make something bespoke, to their requirements or personalised...other wise you have to charge what the market is prepared to pay.

Nobody will buy a pen from me at £50 because I'm not a known brand like Parker but what I can offer is something different from the norm, so they don't mind paying more than they would for a simple biro pen from Woolies...

However, if they said...can you make me a pen to x,y,z specifications...I can then quote my hourly rate if I so desire.

I'm stoping selling slimlines soon as to me they aren't worth the time and effort for what I can ask for them. I now look for pens that are £5 to £8 for a kit and charge a flat rate of £25 as that is what I've found is a price people like to pay me for them. It'll be different for others, but it's so simple when I get to the craft fair and put...all pens £25 each :)