Custom band help

[PensFromNo11]

After some sound advice from Phil Dart (thank you) I worked out how to add a clip to my kitless pen caps. this encouraged me to have a go at a custom band too. It sort of worked (the photos are its best side) finishing was not great in parts but i think just practice will sort that.
But I have questions...

What the best way to attach the finial? - push fit and glue, thread in the finial or thread in the cap???

I used aluminium for my ring and I only have a wood lathe - is it possible (once ive mastered the ali) to turn sliver on my lathe?


thanks in advance

 

[Paul-H]

My first Finial I attached via a screw through the cap

I now just them with a tenon that fit the ring on the clip, which with the one I use is 11 mm is then drill an 11mmhole through the cap, the finial is a snug fit in the cap and secured with a touch of MEK, CA and epoxy will also work. I also run a drill into the finial, this allows me to keep the caps proportions in check as the nib now has a little extra room.

Hope that made sense ;)

And yes if you can turn aluminium you will have little to no issues with silver.

Nice cap by the way.

PS what's the Phil Dart method as with my way I always have the clip ring visible

 

[PensFromNo11]

I now just them with a tenon that fit the ring on the clip, which with the one I use is 11 mm is then drill an 11mmhole through the cap, the finial is a snug fit in the cap and secured with a touch of MEK, CA and epoxy will also work. I also run a drill into the finial, this allows me to keep the caps proportions in check as the nib now has a little extra room.

And yes if you can turn aluminium you will have little to no issues with silver.

PS what's the Phil Dart method as with my way I always have the clip ring visible

thank you
this is how Phil explained how to hide the ring/gasket
- 'You only need a slot for the arm of the gasket if you want to hide the gasket - in which case you would use a gasket that has a smaller diameter than the cap. It would then sit inside a recess, but needs to exit via a "letterbox" type of slot that you cut into the side of the cap (or finial).'

Hope it helps you as it helped me.

 

[DuncSuss]

If the clip has a ring (gasket) then I always thread the tenon of the finial and tap the hole in the cap. I feel it's more professional than using glue.

 

[Phil Dart]

If you want to show off, and I would also argue that it will increase the perceived value of your pen, use a thread in preference to glue. There are always extra brownie points to be had for a finial that screws on and off, rather than just being glued on. It also means that if the clip ever gets into trouble at some point down the line it can easily be changed.

I always think its nicer to have the tenon on the cap and thread that, rather than have the tenon on the finial, (sorry Duncan) but there are no pen police out there, so it's your call. Having said that though, a threaded cap tenon in preference to a threaded finial tenon does rather complicate things though if you're hiding the gasket and using a ring, as you have done, because that damned slot has to go somewhere. So on your pen above for instance, I would thread a finial tenon if it was me, otherwise my brain might fry.

There! I've contradicted myself nicely there. I should be very pleased with myself

 

[PensFromNo11]

If you want to show off, and I would also argue that it will increase the perceived value of your pen, use a thread in preference to glue. There are always extra brownie points to be had for a finial that screws on and off, rather than just being glued on. It also means that if the clip ever gets into trouble at some point down the line it can easily be changed.

I always think its nicer to have the tenon on the cap and thread that, rather than have the tenon on the finial, (sorry Duncan) but there are no pen police out there, so it's your call. Having said that though, a threaded cap tenon in preference to a threaded finial tenon does rather complicate things though if you're hiding the gasket and using a ring, as you have done, because that damned slot has to go somewhere. So on your pen above for instance, I would thread a finial tenon if it was me, otherwise my brain might fry.

There! I've contradicted myself nicely there. I should be very pleased with myself

Perfect...
be pleased, my brain fried too...

actually very helpful thank you

 

[Paul-H]

If the clip has a ring (gasket) then I always thread the tenon of the finial and tap the hole in the cap. I feel it's more professional than using glue.

More professional is it.

Go ang have a look at how most of the traditional vintage pen makers did it, where these big international companies just being unprofessional for not treading their finials, most either used a small screw or glue.

 

[DuncSuss]

More professional is it.

Go ang have a look at how most of the traditional vintage pen makers did it, where these big international companies just being unprofessional for not treading their finials, most either used a small screw or glue.

No need for me to go anywhere - I have a reasonable collection of pens and I know exactly how they are made.

I'm not judging Parker Duofolds or Montegrappas or Pelikans - or the pens anyone else makes. I am concerned only with making the best pen I can make, and I feel the caps where I thread the clip finial are an improvement over the ones where the finial is glued.

 

[ValleyBoy]

You don’t have to thread the tenon, but doing so does afford a few benefits that you don’t get by gluing alone:
1) I find the mechanical joint is more robust than a glued tenon when turning on the lathe resulting in less failures (assuming you need to do that and you’re not producing each component to the exact correct sizes in isolation for later assembly)
2) the owner of the pen can remove the finial to clean the cap more easily if required. It’s one area that tends to get ink build up which can be tricky to clean on transparent pens, especially cellulose based materials.
3) a removable finial means you can change the clip if necessary.

So if you’re going to the effort of making a pen by hand it make sense, in my opinion, to go the extra mile (yard?) to do this small piece of additional work.

Cheers
Ash

 

[Paul-H]

I had better give up then, wouldn't want to be accused of being unprofessional just because I prefer a secure finial to one that might become loose and have the clip spin giving the well known smile mark on the cap.

 

[PensFromNo11]

You don’t have to thread the tenon, but doing so does afford a few benefits that you don’t get by gluing alone:
1) I find the mechanical joint is more robust than a glued tenon when turning on the lathe resulting in less failures (assuming you need to do that and you’re not producing each component to the exact correct sizes in isolation for later assembly)
2) the owner of the pen can remove the finial to clean the cap more easily if required. It’s one area that tends to get ink build up which can be tricky to clean on transparent pens, especially cellulose based materials.
3) a removable finial means you can change the clip if necessary.

So if you’re going to the effort of making a pen by hand it make sense, in my opinion, to go the extra mile (yard?) to do this small piece of additional work.

Cheers
Ash

Thanks Ash,
You and Phil make compelling arguments for creating a thread and the cleaning is something I'd never thought of, but makes a lot of sense.

I'm definitely still a novice, but happy little accidents are occuring in my practice pieces so I'm keen to keep going.
What do you suggest - tenon on the finial (which I guess is easier) or tenon on the cap?

thanks again for your post
Darren

 

[ValleyBoy]

Thanks Ash,
You and Phil make compelling arguments for creating a thread and the cleaning is something I'd never thought of, but makes a lot of sense.

I'm definitely still a novice, but happy little accidents are occuring in my practice pieces so I'm keen to keep going.
What do you suggest - tenon on the finial (which I guess is easier) or tenon on the cap?

thanks again for your post
Darren

Hi Darren

Yes I tend to thread the finial tenon. The reason is for ease as you say. Especially as you’re using a wood lathe.

In the example of the tenon on the cap:
1) you’d have to create a rebate around the tenon for the clip ring to fit into. So because you’ve got the tenon in the way you’d need the correct width tool such as a parting tool that is the same width or slightly narrower than the width of the ring gasket (o/d-I/d) and then trim away at it until it’s wide enough. Clips tend to have gaskets that are 1mm wide so you can imagine the potential for getting it wrong is quite high and I’m not even sure if you can get 1mm wide parting tools so you may need to improvise.
2) once you’ve done that you’d need to cut the notch and it’s quite hard to use a file or a saw because the tenon is in the way. So it’s quite fiddly and you’d have to be quite creative to do it.
(You could rebate and notch the decorative ring that sits above the clip but that’s even tricker in my opinion and it would possibly make the notch more visible above the clip.

Whereas if the finial has the tenon you remove the above issue because:
1) you can sneak up on the diameter of the clip ring as you’re just widening the hole already in the cap that’s going to take the finial. You could even use a drill or reamer that is the correct diameter and just nip out the correct depth for the rebate
2) cutting the notch is easier as you’ve got nothing in the way for your saw/file/dremel etc.

Hopefully that makes sense!

 

[PensFromNo11]

Hopefully that makes sense!

Perfect sense, thanks again

 

[ValleyBoy]

I had better give up then, wouldn't want to be accused of being unprofessional just because I prefer a secure finial to one that might become loose and have the clip spin giving the well known smile mark on the cap.

I was just offering my advice to a guy starting out on this hobby. It happens to be the way I do it and I gave 3 reasons why I do it that way. None of them mentioned professionalism. It’s a hobby for me.

As for smile marks I think you’re confusing what we are talking about here with clips where the gasket is fully visible. It’s not the same.
With rebated clips the gasket is contained within the cap and there is a notch that the clip arm comes through so even if the finial does come slightly loose then the clip is still held in place by the notch so lateral movement is pretty much impossible/negligible. As the clips are sprung steel the tension is sustained so it won’t move. Any user of the pen would notice this pretty quickly and tighten the finial because it just wouldn’t look right and is pretty obvious. (Believe me I’ve fitted hundreds of clips to my pens in this way and the tension actually makes it tricky to attach them).
However if the clip gasket is fully exposed as part of the cap then I agree, if the finial comes slightly loose, it will rotate more easily and mark the cap and wouldn’t be obvious to the user that it’s happening so may go undetected for some time and cause damage. So this would be a candidate for gluing the finial but it’s a very different use case.
Some high end pens, (I think my MontBlanc but I’d have to check), do have the gasket showing but also have a locating lug on the gasket concealed within the cap so it can’t easily rotate if the threaded finial comes loose for this very reason.
Cheers
Ash

 

[alpha1]

Thank you for that Ash great advice as usual. I copy all your posts and save them in word then stick them in a folder called Ash.

 

[PensFromNo11]

Thank you for that Ash great advice as usual. I copy all your posts and save them in word then stick them in a folder called Ash.

that's very clever

 

[ValleyBoy]

Thank you for that Ash great advice as usual. I copy all your posts and save them in word then stick them in a folder called Ash.

My pleasure Dave, and at least I’ll know where to come when I start forgetting how I do stuff.

 

[Rob H]

My pleasure Dave, and at least I’ll know where to come when I start forgetting how I do stuff.

Thanks allot Ash I snorted my coffee when I read this =)