Taiwan Twist

[Walter]

Walter I'm afraid if you accept everybody elses' stories as evidence then surely you will accept what I have said as evidence as well or do you get pick and choose the evidence you like?

Sorry Jon, but evidence of what? What have you proved, except that they are nearly the same size and look similar and little else?

How does that help, sorry HELP, anyone?

I am however reassured to hear that you do not sell Rizheng products and that you acknowledge that Taiwanese kits are generally better quality than Chinese. Perhaps that is why you have not had any returned. As we have both said, not all Chinese products are rubbish and I have no reason to assume that any of the products you sell are rubbish. However I hold to the evidence of my experience of making and using pen kits over 30 years that Taiwanese products are of more consistent quality than the Chinese which are frequently poor quality copies of Taiwanese originals.

 

[Prokraft]

The photos clearly show that, yes, the mechanisms are similar -they both fit in a slimline pen it would be strange if they weren't.

They also clearly show there is more tooling and detail in the Taiwanese mechanism and that the tooling is of better quality as can clearly be seen by the straight lines in the indent in the steel section of the Taiwanese part.

The Brass taper at the bottom of the twist part is different - this means nothing to me but it may to someone else, again there is more detail in the turning of the brass section.

Last year I made 90 slimline pens for a customer (under duress I add) and when I assembled this Taiwanese kit I could tell no difference in this process or the fit of the kit against our standard slimline kit.

Three people (I was one) tried the mechanism of the kit against one of our normal mechanisms, the 2 others tried them blind - and could tell no difference in operation - both brand new kits.

It is not possible for me to tell you what these will be like in 2 years time as I cannot time travel, one may fail one may not.

I may not have helped but I did try.

Walter, as you are a moderator of the forum and I clearly have nothing of value to contribute I would be grateful if you would remove my Prokraft section as I do not wish continue my membership here.

I would however like to thank those that have been kind enough to offer their help and views to the questions I have asked over the last few months and I have made a few new friends here too that I shall remain in contact with by other means.

I wish you all well for the future - happy turning.

 

[Lons]

Hi Jon

I think it's a great shame that you've taken it personally and spat your dummy out, life is too short and this is after all an open forum where we should all be able to debate and discuss our differing views in a friendly manner. We're always going to disagree on some subjects are we not? It's why religion and politics are usually banned ( and on another forum they should ban sharpening threads as well )

I guess I've made around 600 pens so nothing like the quantity that some others make but I have had a number of similar failures and, as far as I know, they were all of Chinese origin, I also found that the tolerances varied a bit more than I liked. You get what you pay for normally so I guess to be expected.

I do have one other point though and I would question whether a biginner should be buying cheap kits in the first place. Assuming they already own a lathe and turning tools:

* To make pens they will have invested sums for mandrel and maybe drilling, pressing and blank holding.
* Possibly glues and finishes, Micromesh etc.
* Most likely be buying blanks.
* Display cases, pouches and boxes.
* Will want to gift or sell what they make.

My point is that whatever they make they want to be proud of and if paying say £4 instead of £2 for a slimline kit helps do that then in the overall picture it is very small beer indeed. If they make a mess of a pen then they've lost the blank but the kit parts are retrievable and not lost. If you turn a really nice blank on to a pen which later fails you've lost both and possibly a reputation to boot.

For those reasons my advice to someone starting out is buy the better kit!

 

[Walter]

It is a pity that you cannot separate the reality that some Chinese pen kit products are of poor quality from your own interest in defending your own products.

If you feel you have nothing to contribute then perhaps it is better that you do leave rather than continue to mislead beginners with poor advice about product quality.

Goodbye Jon.

 

[Prokraft]

Bob I agree with you fully, that is what a forum is for - an open and honest debate.

However wrong I may be, I have tried to help with an identification issue by way of photographs as the opportunity was presented to me this week and suggested that perhaps it is best for users to make up their own minds when using a kit.

It is not me that continually questions other sellers products or their route to market - competition makes for a healthy marketplace - I only comment on items of which I have experience.

I cannot, in all conscience, continue on a forum where members are not permitted a difference of opinion with the moderators, I have now been accused of giving bad advice and being misleading.

Yes, I spat my dummy out, but having put it back in I have drawn the same conclusion.

 

[Penpal]

Jon with respect I thank you for your thoughts on the subject you raised, I have a stock of Slimline kits etc,a big stash of brasses for Slims. When I select some for use I hold them in a shaft to make it easier to rough up and if they slip off or not go in in I reject them. I have no idea about winding mechs except I did reject a batch of them when I found that under pressure during writing the mechs would wind in. I replaced 50 of them at that time I bought Slims in batches of Clips, Tips ,Tops and centre bands,winders ,brass etc.

I use very many Slims these days I choose mostly to utilise the larger centre bands of Streamlines. I always say to people who receive my Slims this is not a rolls royce level kit, I feel anyone selling for 30 quid these pens should be aware and advise. Never had an adverse return or comment. Twenty years a pensioner tells me this is my choice, most are gifts.Any effort to inform,advise is always welcomed by me.Also with respect this forum needs enquiring minds.

Peter.

 

[Walter]

I cannot, in all conscience, continue on a forum where members are not permitted a difference of opinion with the moderators, I have now been accused of giving bad advice and being misleading.

On the contrary, you are welcome to hold and express any opinion you wish. However when, in the opinion of the moderators, that leads to giving advice based on an unscientific physical examination and short comparison of two products which may mislead beginners into thinking that there is no point in paying more for a better quality product we have a responsibility to point out the unreliability of that advice. We also have a responsibility to point out that it is not independent of commercial interest.

As for leaving the group that is your choice and easily achieved if that is what you wish to do. The door is open if you should change your mind.