I think having the choice is the better option by just having the posted to put "C & C Welcome" at the bottom of their post that way no need to mess about with the forum program
-
Thanks for visiting The Penturners Forum today.
There are many features and resources that currently you are unable to see or access, either because you're not yet registered, or if you're already registered, because you're not logged in.
To gain full access to the forum, please log in or register now. Registration is completely free, it only takes a few seconds, and you can join our well established community of like-minded pen makers.
I think having the choice is the better option by just having the posted to put "C & C Welcome" at the bottom of their post that way no need to mess about with the forum program
I'm not necessarily saying a click button is desirable, irrespective of whether it's optional, obligatory, or defaults to anything deemed sensible - I'm just letting you know it is possible, that's all.
AllenN
Fellow
I think for what it is worth that Walter has a fair point. I find constructive critisism helpful especially it it comes with advice that has been garnered with experience. It the advice is not sound, it seems to me that there are plenty of experienced turners on here who would quickly step in and say so. That way I think we all learn.
If all one intends when posting is to recieve plaudits then to my mind that rather undermines the value.
Walter was careful to use the phrase 'constructive' critisism and that is what it should be. Just saying something is rubblish is hardly constructive.
There is of course nothing wrong with expressing personal taste or opinion so long as that it not disguised as critisism of technique. We all have our personal tastes and it would be a boring world if we did not.
In one of the earlier post exchanges the point was made that using the like button etc was a good way to signal approval without cluttering up the thread with too many identical posts so maybe these two things go hand in hand.
Just my few thoughts.
If all one intends when posting is to recieve plaudits then to my mind that rather undermines the value.
Walter was careful to use the phrase 'constructive' critisism and that is what it should be. Just saying something is rubblish is hardly constructive.
There is of course nothing wrong with expressing personal taste or opinion so long as that it not disguised as critisism of technique. We all have our personal tastes and it would be a boring world if we did not.
In one of the earlier post exchanges the point was made that using the like button etc was a good way to signal approval without cluttering up the thread with too many identical posts so maybe these two things go hand in hand.
Just my few thoughts.
As a new turner, who's essentially teaching myself, I'd love to have some constructive criticism of my work. One of the main reasons I joined the forum is to learn from more experienced members - that's going to be a whole lot easier if they can see what I'm producing and give me honest feedback. It also makes a 'well done' worth so much more, if I know that it's from someone who will always pick up any issues.
Well I am glad it generated a good discussion and long may it continue. (Disappointed as only the "select" few have replied with the exception of one Newbie. would have been nice to have a few more.)
The reason I brought it up was simply because in my opinion is the forum is getting too much like the "thats a nice pen" brigade and only seeing good points in the pen when there is at time clear room for improvement. (That is only my opinion)
As for "quick "buttons" to give us the nod to say we can give critique is a pointless one in my belief. We should be able to do that and feel as a valued member we could give it fairly.
The way I looked at it (Note it says "Looked")
If you post in an open forum like this then you should expect some comments of critique you should NOT need to ask for them, surely that is why we are here isn't it?
I saw the point of the forum is to be able to exchange fair comments and be open at what we can say. taste is taste and we all know that is different with whoever holds the view.
But maybe I was wrong.
Maybe that is why the "newbies" don't post threads or even show their face or comment in fear of what may be said that they don't like.
However I take on the thoughts of other members more versed with forums than myself and make a change and only comment if they are asked for. Simple..
The reason I brought it up was simply because in my opinion is the forum is getting too much like the "thats a nice pen" brigade and only seeing good points in the pen when there is at time clear room for improvement. (That is only my opinion)
As for "quick "buttons" to give us the nod to say we can give critique is a pointless one in my belief. We should be able to do that and feel as a valued member we could give it fairly.
The way I looked at it (Note it says "Looked")
If you post in an open forum like this then you should expect some comments of critique you should NOT need to ask for them, surely that is why we are here isn't it?
I saw the point of the forum is to be able to exchange fair comments and be open at what we can say. taste is taste and we all know that is different with whoever holds the view.
But maybe I was wrong.
Maybe that is why the "newbies" don't post threads or even show their face or comment in fear of what may be said that they don't like.
However I take on the thoughts of other members more versed with forums than myself and make a change and only comment if they are asked for. Simple..
I read the forum every day and there are many pens that I like but I agree with Terry Q what's the point of adding another nice pen comment I sometimes think that nice comments would improve my ranking but that's not why I joined the forum.
Robin
Robin
(Disappointed as only the "select" few have replied with the exception of one Newbie. would have been nice to have a few more.)
Maybe that is why the "newbies" don't post threads or even show their face or comment in fear of what may be said that they don't like.
I think those 2 sentences just answered themselves, chastised if you do and chastised if you don't
For myself, if i like a pen I'll say so, if I don't I won't .. or which is more likely I haven't seen it.
If I see something blatantly obvious I'll say something, unless someone has said it already.
I don't get on here as much as I used to, I use my phone most of the time and the forum is not made for a 5 x 2 screen.
The Forum is a valuable resource and it's members have all the skills anyone would need.
Facebook has been the death of many forums, I used to belong to 3 Landrover forums, Facebook killed them all, same as fishing forums ... not many left now.
We will need to work hard to keep the forum going, luckily most of the members are over 80 and they don't like Facebook
I'll shut up now
wm460
Grand Master
- Joined
- Mar 16, 2013
- Posts
- 23,106
- First Name
- Mark
There are very few forums I belonged to left, The Pen Shop seemed to be the latest victim.
We will need to work hard to keep the forum going, luckily most of the members are over 80 and they don't like Facebook
I'll shut up now
I am we under 80, and hate it.
Harry
Full Member
As someone who has never been a woodturner and has only been turning pens for just over 2 years, I feel I may be on thin ice here, but here goes.
Unlike many on this forum, my penturning is only a hobby, and I sell a few pens to fund it. I don't post very often, although I read the new posts every day. What I am noticing sometimes is a post showing a pen made by an experienced turner, that, to my eyes, has an obvious flaw in workmanship. This post then receives answering posts from other experienced turners with comments such as "nice pen", "well turned and finished", etc. I find myself checking the photo again to see if I imagined the defect, but no. Now, I do not feel it is my place to tell such a person that I think their work could be better, but I find it odd that other, more experienced folks only have praise to offer.
C&Cs welcome!
Unlike many on this forum, my penturning is only a hobby, and I sell a few pens to fund it. I don't post very often, although I read the new posts every day. What I am noticing sometimes is a post showing a pen made by an experienced turner, that, to my eyes, has an obvious flaw in workmanship. This post then receives answering posts from other experienced turners with comments such as "nice pen", "well turned and finished", etc. I find myself checking the photo again to see if I imagined the defect, but no. Now, I do not feel it is my place to tell such a person that I think their work could be better, but I find it odd that other, more experienced folks only have praise to offer.
C&Cs welcome!
Penpal
Grand Master
Most I posts I make showing a pen I try to do multiple pictures to show the differing aspects. I make no claims of anything merely showing and sharing. Yes I try to go to the forum as a break from rushing around and enjoy it.
I am a great believer in putting my money where I choose, believe in free speech. This time of now is going to prove totally different from before, those timbers easily found have become isolated. More makers are making their own plastic blanks.
What can be a killer to participation is comments on sentence structure, spelling, layout of pictures especially to new members.Helping can be done in a friendly way. Another killer is to spend ages writing, photographing posting help when nothing is ever said in return.
I have a formula to create pics of my pens, immediate, easy and repeatable that suits me fine, I believe that is important for me and you.
Peter.
I am a great believer in putting my money where I choose, believe in free speech. This time of now is going to prove totally different from before, those timbers easily found have become isolated. More makers are making their own plastic blanks.
What can be a killer to participation is comments on sentence structure, spelling, layout of pictures especially to new members.Helping can be done in a friendly way. Another killer is to spend ages writing, photographing posting help when nothing is ever said in return.
I have a formula to create pics of my pens, immediate, easy and repeatable that suits me fine, I believe that is important for me and you.
Peter.
Harry, thank you for this honest post. This is exactly why I felt the thread needed starting and to try and bring out some conversation in to what we do going forward.
It makes no difference whether or not you do pen turning as a hobby or if you seek to make a living. Everyone has experience and has a valid point.. provided it's out over right or as Brad has said in "question" format.
I totally agree, I've noticed the same.
Thank you Melanie, it's another one for reinforcing my thoughts of where I saw it myself.
I know we need to give some good constructive comments and do need to be fair, but we are surely mature enough to accept that it's only someone that is helping me to make a better pen ultimately isn't it?
Harry and Melanie
Perhaps you should say something, if you can see an obvious flaw, then say so ...
Maybe do it as a question, such as ....
Is that bloody great split supposed to be there
That explains the term "it's a cracker"
Ok, Ok, Ok. I've been following this thread with a great deal of interest, as you might imagine - and as I see from the stats, so have an awful lot of other people.
I believe it is important in the first instance to remember just why people post their pens on the forum, and there are several reasons. A great deal of people simply like to show off their work to their peers - and there's nothing wrong with that. Often, those same folk don't necessarily contribute to discussions, and whilst it's always nice to see their work, its often difficult to build a relationship with them, therefore to critique or point out a defect is likely to cause offense. These people often post their work in many places on social media simultaneously and they are more than likely not here to be critiqued.
At the other end of the pole are those who may be near the beginning of their journey. They want to show their peers their achievements and their progress along the road, and they are justifiably proud of the pen they have made. Often those folk are their own harshest critics - they know they are beginners, and to wade in there with critique can be soul destroying for them. That is not to mention the vast number of people who visit regulatory but don't post their pens, for fear that they are not good enough, or for fear of being shot down in flames by what they perceive to be a small handful of people whom they can sometimes judge to be elitist.
There are all sorts of reasons in between those extremes, but if you try to remove from you minds, those regulars with whom you are buddies on line, with whom you have built a relationship, whom you know can tolerate a bit of banter and would take a quick jibe about a small defect in good spirit, ask yourselves how appropriate it is to find fault in a pen made by someone you don't know.
What I do not want to see happen is a system by which if critique is invited, people are pounced on, every little fault is pointed out and "helpful" suggestions for improvements are made, sometimes by keyboard warriors who have less or no more knowledge or skill than the maker posting the pen.
I see no harm in asking for critique if it's genuinely desired - a simple "C&C welcome" within the post would be all that is needed, but if anyone feels they have the right to point out a fault, and/or if C&C is welcomed, all l I ask is that it's done courteously, and in the same manner by which you yourself would like to be treated. As has previously been suggested, a comment in the form of a question can be a good approach - another gentle approach is to point out the good points first, then mention the defect you have spotted, perhaps finishing your comments with another good point. We all started pen turning somewhere, or in many cases are at or near the beginning of the journey right now, and even the most experienced of craftsmen and women make mistakes from time to time - so lets all be realistic about the comments we make, and polite with it. I agree that "nice pen, great finish mate" is not particularly helpful, and it can be quite dull to read a page full of comments like that, but if it IS a nice pen with a great finish, then why not say so. There is also the "Like" button for that very purpose if you don't want to physically comment.
For obvious reasons, I take issue with a foregoing suggestion that forums have had their day. You only have to look at the number of people that come here on a daily basis, the number of contributions that are made compared to other types of social media, the quality of discussions that are conducted here, or simply dip you toe in the vast resources of knowledge that exist within the archives to realise that is simply not true. If you want plenty of banality and "great pen, nice finish mate" then, yes I agree, there are other places that are better suited to your needs. But what is vital is that this forum to continues to lead the way in the future too, so please, let's all accept that everyone here has a right to an opinion, irrespective of experience or age, and let's take a grown up attitude to comments and critique, be honest about it, don't comment beyond your knowledge, be polite and courteous, and above all, enjoy being here.
I believe it is important in the first instance to remember just why people post their pens on the forum, and there are several reasons. A great deal of people simply like to show off their work to their peers - and there's nothing wrong with that. Often, those same folk don't necessarily contribute to discussions, and whilst it's always nice to see their work, its often difficult to build a relationship with them, therefore to critique or point out a defect is likely to cause offense. These people often post their work in many places on social media simultaneously and they are more than likely not here to be critiqued.
At the other end of the pole are those who may be near the beginning of their journey. They want to show their peers their achievements and their progress along the road, and they are justifiably proud of the pen they have made. Often those folk are their own harshest critics - they know they are beginners, and to wade in there with critique can be soul destroying for them. That is not to mention the vast number of people who visit regulatory but don't post their pens, for fear that they are not good enough, or for fear of being shot down in flames by what they perceive to be a small handful of people whom they can sometimes judge to be elitist.
There are all sorts of reasons in between those extremes, but if you try to remove from you minds, those regulars with whom you are buddies on line, with whom you have built a relationship, whom you know can tolerate a bit of banter and would take a quick jibe about a small defect in good spirit, ask yourselves how appropriate it is to find fault in a pen made by someone you don't know.
What I do not want to see happen is a system by which if critique is invited, people are pounced on, every little fault is pointed out and "helpful" suggestions for improvements are made, sometimes by keyboard warriors who have less or no more knowledge or skill than the maker posting the pen.
I see no harm in asking for critique if it's genuinely desired - a simple "C&C welcome" within the post would be all that is needed, but if anyone feels they have the right to point out a fault, and/or if C&C is welcomed, all l I ask is that it's done courteously, and in the same manner by which you yourself would like to be treated. As has previously been suggested, a comment in the form of a question can be a good approach - another gentle approach is to point out the good points first, then mention the defect you have spotted, perhaps finishing your comments with another good point. We all started pen turning somewhere, or in many cases are at or near the beginning of the journey right now, and even the most experienced of craftsmen and women make mistakes from time to time - so lets all be realistic about the comments we make, and polite with it. I agree that "nice pen, great finish mate" is not particularly helpful, and it can be quite dull to read a page full of comments like that, but if it IS a nice pen with a great finish, then why not say so. There is also the "Like" button for that very purpose if you don't want to physically comment.
For obvious reasons, I take issue with a foregoing suggestion that forums have had their day. You only have to look at the number of people that come here on a daily basis, the number of contributions that are made compared to other types of social media, the quality of discussions that are conducted here, or simply dip you toe in the vast resources of knowledge that exist within the archives to realise that is simply not true. If you want plenty of banality and "great pen, nice finish mate" then, yes I agree, there are other places that are better suited to your needs. But what is vital is that this forum to continues to lead the way in the future too, so please, let's all accept that everyone here has a right to an opinion, irrespective of experience or age, and let's take a grown up attitude to comments and critique, be honest about it, don't comment beyond your knowledge, be polite and courteous, and above all, enjoy being here.
Bigblackdog
Registered
I don't post particularly often, partially because I don't make that many pena, and when I do the photographs are not very good, and for a few other reasons:
Unless it is a special blank or unusual effect (dyeing etc), there is nothing interesting to show on yet another omega/zeta/Jr gent with a cherry/oak/maple blank on it. People post for various reasons, sometimes just to keep a record of their progress and this is fine. But it is not for me.
Unless it is a particularly nice pen, and I have no other comments, I am not going to post for the sake of it. Likewise, if it is not to my taste but is well made all the same, I will sometimes comment. If it is not exceptionally well turned and not o my taste, to be honest, what do I have to add to a discussion?
Frequently, a post starts and the next reply is "member x will tell you how to do this", and it closes the discussion. If the only response deemed to be worth hearing is that one, I wouldnt bother responding even if I was a world leading expert on the subject. Unfortunately, this sometimes makes the forum feel like it consists of about 5 members who are experts and nobody else matters. There have been a number of posts recently saying " only listen to the most experienced members". I agree, in part- turning and finishing are down to experience, but if a beginner has mastered a finish after 10 pens and can answer a question on it, then that is as valid as a member of several years. Likewise, design based discussions are irrelevant of a respondents turning experience.
Half of the pens I have already seen on Facebook. Depending whether I have looked on the forum first or Facebook, I will often open the post and click to the next one if I have seen it.
The "new posts" redress too quickly, and I think that I miss some posts and replies. "Today's posts" seems to be full of people commenting "nice pen" on stuff that I saw a week ago.
Unless it is a special blank or unusual effect (dyeing etc), there is nothing interesting to show on yet another omega/zeta/Jr gent with a cherry/oak/maple blank on it. People post for various reasons, sometimes just to keep a record of their progress and this is fine. But it is not for me.
Unless it is a particularly nice pen, and I have no other comments, I am not going to post for the sake of it. Likewise, if it is not to my taste but is well made all the same, I will sometimes comment. If it is not exceptionally well turned and not o my taste, to be honest, what do I have to add to a discussion?
Frequently, a post starts and the next reply is "member x will tell you how to do this", and it closes the discussion. If the only response deemed to be worth hearing is that one, I wouldnt bother responding even if I was a world leading expert on the subject. Unfortunately, this sometimes makes the forum feel like it consists of about 5 members who are experts and nobody else matters. There have been a number of posts recently saying " only listen to the most experienced members". I agree, in part- turning and finishing are down to experience, but if a beginner has mastered a finish after 10 pens and can answer a question on it, then that is as valid as a member of several years. Likewise, design based discussions are irrelevant of a respondents turning experience.
Half of the pens I have already seen on Facebook. Depending whether I have looked on the forum first or Facebook, I will often open the post and click to the next one if I have seen it.
The "new posts" redress too quickly, and I think that I miss some posts and replies. "Today's posts" seems to be full of people commenting "nice pen" on stuff that I saw a week ago.
bassethound
Executive Member
I am probably guilty of most things that have been said, but I will say that I have been a member of many forums in my time and at over 80 now this is the best one I have had the pleasure to be in,
I will most likely be told off for this but I think we should get a grip, stop finding fault and enjoy the forum as it is, quite a few have stopped using the forum. life's too short!
Back to the doghouse now...
I will most likely be told off for this but I think we should get a grip, stop finding fault and enjoy the forum as it is, quite a few have stopped using the forum. life's too short!
Back to the doghouse now...
I am probably guilty of most things that have been said, but I will say that I have been a member of many forums in my time and at over 80 now this is the best one I have had the pleasure to be in,
I will most likely be told off for this but I think we should get a grip, stop finding fault and enjoy the forum as it is, quite a few have stopped using the forum. life's too short!
Back to the doghouse now...
Well said Ted as I said before I think critics should at least show that they know what they are talking about by showing the pens they make but most of them rarely do on most forums I remember a food critic going on a cooking program and he couldn't cook to save his life now I'm not saying the critics on here dont know what they are talking about but at least show you know how to make a good pen so that newbies can see that your experienced again as I said before lead by example there I did say I wasnt going to say anything else and here I go again spouting of time to shut up
I wasn't going to add any further comments to this thread as I have nothing to add to my previous comments however I feel that I should say that it is a commendable reflection on this forum that we can conduct a healthy debate where opinions are strongly divided without resorting to the level of personal insults, sniping and flame wars that would most likely have occurred in many other forums and groups.
Long may that continue.
Long may that continue.
Lons
Fellow
Hmm... I feel one of my essays coming on!
I check out new posts on the forum every day though don't post nearly as often these days and as I've made very few pens over the last months haven't posted pictures either. Reasons:
1. Many of the regulars I enjoyed a banter with are rarely present now and the forum has changed, as all must do however it's still the friendliest and most helpful forum I've encountered - probably due to most of the members being on heavy medication.
2. A lot of the questions asked have been asked and answered several times in the past and could be found with a simple search of the forum although of course that's inevitable.
3. While I read all threads and posts of interest I get bored with seeing the copious amounts of "nice pen" etc. which seems a waste of time when there is a "like" button which says the same thing. Would be interesting to know what % of those posts make up members post count and I know I've done it as well, I've just become more of a grumpy old man these days.
This thread is actually one of the few recently that's piqued my interest and there have been some thought provoking and constructive comments.
So...
I joined 3 years ago, a reasonably experienced turner but brand new to pens, asked a few questions and got a tremendous amount of help and encouragement from everyone including a personal demonstration by Walter, all of which was very gratefully received. My first pens weren't bad but I could see faults and tbh I didn't want the "nicely turned" comments, I got the plaudits from my family who didn't know better, :wink: but rather for honest critique and pointers to where I could improve as like most people I'm not happy with churning out mediocre objects.
As a newbie in any field it can be nerve wracking to stick your head above the parapet but we're all adults and should be able to handle it surely, it's the only way you're going to learn! Every one of us makes mistakes and has disasters so post those as well for advice and you'll find even royalty like Woody and Walter have likely been through that once upon a time.
That said, every experienced member has a responsibility to help not discourage new members and it is a simple matter to word a critique constructively as Walter says and without causing offence. If you can't do that then don't post at all.
I check out new posts on the forum every day though don't post nearly as often these days and as I've made very few pens over the last months haven't posted pictures either. Reasons:
1. Many of the regulars I enjoyed a banter with are rarely present now and the forum has changed, as all must do however it's still the friendliest and most helpful forum I've encountered - probably due to most of the members being on heavy medication.
2. A lot of the questions asked have been asked and answered several times in the past and could be found with a simple search of the forum although of course that's inevitable.
3. While I read all threads and posts of interest I get bored with seeing the copious amounts of "nice pen" etc. which seems a waste of time when there is a "like" button which says the same thing. Would be interesting to know what % of those posts make up members post count and I know I've done it as well, I've just become more of a grumpy old man these days.
This thread is actually one of the few recently that's piqued my interest and there have been some thought provoking and constructive comments.
So...
I joined 3 years ago, a reasonably experienced turner but brand new to pens, asked a few questions and got a tremendous amount of help and encouragement from everyone including a personal demonstration by Walter, all of which was very gratefully received. My first pens weren't bad but I could see faults and tbh I didn't want the "nicely turned" comments, I got the plaudits from my family who didn't know better, :wink: but rather for honest critique and pointers to where I could improve as like most people I'm not happy with churning out mediocre objects.
As a newbie in any field it can be nerve wracking to stick your head above the parapet but we're all adults and should be able to handle it surely, it's the only way you're going to learn! Every one of us makes mistakes and has disasters so post those as well for advice and you'll find even royalty like Woody and Walter have likely been through that once upon a time.
That said, every experienced member has a responsibility to help not discourage new members and it is a simple matter to word a critique constructively as Walter says and without causing offence. If you can't do that then don't post at all.