I always follow TCut with 2 coats of Mer Car Wax Mer Car Polish 1 Litre, Ultimate Car Wax, High Gloss | eBay
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Micromesh v Burnishing Cream
- Thread starter Walter
- Start date
I always follow TCut with 2 coats of Mer Car Wax Mer Car Polish 1 Litre, Ultimate Car Wax, High Gloss | eBay
Thanks to you all - Woody, Walter, Doug, Neil Mick and Bellringer for your advice... 
Who's kidding who here?
How much wax do you think any of these products have in them?
How much weather is your pen gonna be left outside in?
How big do you think it is that you will notice it dulling?
Tell the truth to yourself for gods sake.
You are gonna make it and do the best you can.
Some grubby fingers are gonna pick it up and mishandle it, they will probably try pushing the screw fit on and leave it on your desk, hopng you don't notice they have broken it before the next person picks it up with there grubby fingers.
Along comes the next plank who sure enough can't resist looking at this masterpiece and for some strange reason noticing how shiny it is they start rubbing it all round their face then wanna smell and taste it like it's food.
At this stage it is no longer a mastrepiece but simply becomes a pen and with a piece of paper it now amuses young Tommy and keeps the little soldier quite while mummy has her chat.
Sorry ain't got time to finish off gotta get to work init? back later for the raised eyebrowse yeah.
How much wax do you think any of these products have in them?
How much weather is your pen gonna be left outside in?
How big do you think it is that you will notice it dulling?
Tell the truth to yourself for gods sake.
You are gonna make it and do the best you can.
Some grubby fingers are gonna pick it up and mishandle it, they will probably try pushing the screw fit on and leave it on your desk, hopng you don't notice they have broken it before the next person picks it up with there grubby fingers.
Along comes the next plank who sure enough can't resist looking at this masterpiece and for some strange reason noticing how shiny it is they start rubbing it all round their face then wanna smell and taste it like it's food.
At this stage it is no longer a mastrepiece but simply becomes a pen and with a piece of paper it now amuses young Tommy and keeps the little soldier quite while mummy has her chat.
Sorry ain't got time to finish off gotta get to work init? back later for the raised eyebrowse yeah.
Pete B
Registered
Hi,
re t cut and paint i thought paint was porous even ikf it is to a very small degree. I always notice at Morrisons or wherever that when its raining, a waxed car has water droplets all over it, like water sitting on a plastic sheet, whereas an un waxed car is wet. Have a look next time its raining. I always thought waxing your car (when ever i never get around to doing it )was to put an extra shine and extra protective coating on top of your paint.
Don't body shops shops use way more advanced 3 part cutting compounds for repairs. Because if a bodyshop re sprays etc you don't have to keep waxing like you do sometimes with t cut. I know Nissan do a 3 part system themselves.
With any product designed for the marine or aerospace industries for clear perspex or glass, i think they remove very fine scratches to such a degree that the repair becomes invisible. Thats why they use a much finer or progressively much finer grade or grit in the compound.
Some of the products available in different names may well be Branded or private labelling, that might not be the correct term but i know micro mesh allow you, if you buy enough to call their products anything you like.
I will try and find out today as i have to ring someone who may know for certain, but they might not be able to disclose it, but i will have a go.
Grump has a good point. My lovely wife has several of my pens and a very good one in Rhodium and i think, it was polished very well and i used micro crystalline wax on top. After about 6 months sloshing around in her massive handbag (still don't understand that part by the way) the barrel was not scratched much but much duller, the Rhodium did have lots of scratches so now every pen apart from cheapos has a free felt bag, they are cheap enough in bulk.
Regards
Pete
re t cut and paint i thought paint was porous even ikf it is to a very small degree. I always notice at Morrisons or wherever that when its raining, a waxed car has water droplets all over it, like water sitting on a plastic sheet, whereas an un waxed car is wet. Have a look next time its raining. I always thought waxing your car (when ever i never get around to doing it )was to put an extra shine and extra protective coating on top of your paint.
Don't body shops shops use way more advanced 3 part cutting compounds for repairs. Because if a bodyshop re sprays etc you don't have to keep waxing like you do sometimes with t cut. I know Nissan do a 3 part system themselves.
With any product designed for the marine or aerospace industries for clear perspex or glass, i think they remove very fine scratches to such a degree that the repair becomes invisible. Thats why they use a much finer or progressively much finer grade or grit in the compound.
Some of the products available in different names may well be Branded or private labelling, that might not be the correct term but i know micro mesh allow you, if you buy enough to call their products anything you like.
I will try and find out today as i have to ring someone who may know for certain, but they might not be able to disclose it, but i will have a go.
Grump has a good point. My lovely wife has several of my pens and a very good one in Rhodium and i think, it was polished very well and i used micro crystalline wax on top. After about 6 months sloshing around in her massive handbag (still don't understand that part by the way) the barrel was not scratched much but much duller, the Rhodium did have lots of scratches so now every pen apart from cheapos has a free felt bag, they are cheap enough in bulk.
Regards
Pete
Somewhere in there is the point that I was trying to make in a rather more subtle way when I referred to the other environmental factors that car bodywork is subjected to.
I doubt if a final wax polish adds much to the process but using t-cut or a similar cutting compound followed by a car polish (such as this which contains a mild abrasive and is used between a cutting compound and wax by car polishing obsessives) may well give as good a result as burnishing cream (or Vim and toothpaste) they are all just fine abrasives after all.
Neil
Fellow
Finishing regimes seem to be an extremely emotive subject in the woodturning fraternity, and fuelled by a couple of points in recent posts I did a bit of research.
I never knew the relationship between micromesh and sandpaper grits, in fact I used to sand to 600 wet and dry and then continue with 800, 1000, 1200 and then swop over to 1500 Micromesh on Acrylics. Well apparently I was wasting my time.
I used to get really fed up with the “silly” little squares of micromesh with the foam in between that were colour coded and the colour always used to come off. Was there any other product using micromesh? I have used the 3 x 6 sheets for a while and much prefer them – its easier to judge the pressure and I don’t get the burn marks – but that was probably because a few years back I used to try and sand far to quickly with Micromesh)
What finally spurred me into finding out was the debate about the abrasive quality of burnishing cream and what the grit rating of it was.
Couldn’t sleep last night and laid in bed at 3am and found this lot out.
Micromesh is made by a company based in Iowa trading as Micro-Surface. If you want to read about them they’re here: MICRO-SURFACE FINISHING PRODUCTS, INC. The product range comprises (of particular interest to us) Micro mesh sheets, 3 x 6 inches, 6 x 12 inches and 12 x 12 inches. Micro mesh is available in three “strengths”, Regular , Mx, and AO, the letter standing for Aluminium Oxide which is marketed as a polishing medium for aluminium finishing. Don’t know what Mx stands for but it is for polishing harder metals (there is actually a fourth called MXD but I think it is even more specialised).
Soft Touch Pads, those with the coloured coding are available in 2 x 2 inch squares and also 3 x 4inch squares, again, available in all three grades. An interesting point here is that they are marketed by micro surface as being applicable for softer woods, implying that another grade is suitable for the harder woods, and the next up the scale is the AO type. You can also get rolls up to fifty foot long! (that’s a lot of pens!) You can also buy three to eight inch discs with either an adhesive or loop backing.
That’s the précis of the relevant micro mesh products, but there are more so take a look. One more that is relevant to the issue of grit labelling of burnishing cream is that they also sell fluids (aka abrasive slurries) and polishes. Micro finish liquid abrasive and Micro gloss are the two products that appear to be relevant to our hobby. Micro Gloss Liquid abrasive will remove a 9 micron scratch (?? See later on grit comparisons) whereas their standard finish is described as 1 micron Micro Gloss. It doesn’t say so but I assume therefore that the supposition is that it will remove a one micron scratch (?) and is therefore a superior product. This rates the abrasive qualities of the liquid abrasive at Micromesh grit 3200. The Micro gloss at the 1 micron level would appear to be at least, if not better than, 12000 (see the grit comparison table).
Just had a break for coffee and saw Pete’s post about Micromesh labelling, they are very open about it and there is a section on their website labelled “Private Labelling” so you can get this stuff under other names but I guess they wont let it go at lower prices.
Micromesh Grit Comparison chart:
Micromesh Regular USA Grit UK Grit Micron
P120 125
120
P150 100
180 P180 80
200 P220 65
P240 60
P320 52
240 50
280 P360 45
320
P400 42
P500
360
P600 40
1500 400 30
P800
500 P1000 20
P1200
1800 600 15
800 P1500 13
2400
P2000 10
1000
P2500 9
3200 1200
3600 1350 8
4000 1500 5
6000 4
8000 3
12000 ????
The USA Grit system is different from ours, so be warned as you can slip up! If you have insomnia you can check out the definitions of the two systems at sandpaper , where you can find out about CAMI, ANSI, FEPA, and SNORE, the latter of which is the end result. But seriously there is some interesting stuff about stearated and non clog papers.
So, thought I would check out the uk distributors and there are several, some that specialise in the aerospace industry and since I don’t want to polish the hubble telescope, I moved on and found this company which specialises in the model making sector. Interesting, especially following Woodys post regarding Plasticard, as this company sell all sorts of colours and thicknesses, so here’s the next comp Jim, segmented plasticard! There are also cutters to make life easier and other things designed to empty our pockets! Sylmasta Ltd is the web address, and they are based in Sussex.
Well no nearer finding out the grit comparison for Burnishing cream and cant find out any details as to the micron depth of scratch that any manufacturer will achieve. However found out that Fiddes burnishing cream is the same as Liberon, their websites use exactly the same wording to describe the product and its capability, but I suspect that someone will tell me that one is the holding company of the other?
On the other issue of finishing corian, and a post regarding the coating of a t cut paint finish on a car, the following may be relevant. Finishing a paint in an environment where prolonged exposure to UV is likely is necessary as the UV will, in the case of a polyester and polyurethane paint (and may be others I don’t know) create a situation that was known to the European Coil Coating Association as white paint flake migration. Paint appears solid but under prolonged exposure to UV light the paint can cause electro statically unattached flakes to migrate to the surface of the material making it appear as if the surface has been sprayed with sea water and the water allowed to evaporate, leaving a salt like deposit. This is both unsightly and causes degradation of the paint finish, ultimately leading to its collapse as a cosmetic and anti corrosion layer. My own opinion after working with metal coatings for over twenty years is that there is no need to coat acrylics after sanding, it wont degrade and the surface is sufficiently dense that additional coatings provide no real purpose as it will not have any prolonged (years) exposure to UV, but that is my opinion. My company used to overcoat the aluminium cladding panels that were coated with a polyester paint and sometimes, (alloy dependent) a polyurethane paint with a polyamide finish to stop the white paint flake migration that dulled the paint finish and left the residue.
The Penmakers guild have an article by Kurt Hertzog entitled working with Corian (www.penmakersguild.com/articles/workingwithcorian.pdf) , that some of you may already have read. The salient points are that he uses 5 minute epoxy to bond corian to wood and ca to bond it to itself having sanded the surfaces to be bonded with 400 wet and dry, sorry don’t know if that is the American 400 or P400 UK grit!! On the subject of finishing Corian, Kurt Hertzog states “Do not use the Novus Polishes after Micro Mesh sanding as you’ll be going backwards.” I cant find any statistics to the abrasive qualities of the Novus polishes so this in itself isn’t much help. He does state though that if you want to take the finishing even further than basic sanding, you should sand to P400 and then use micromesh through to 12000. He doesn’t say don’t use any other polish, just “When you’ve finished the series (Grits) you’ll be amazed at the results.” He doesn’t then say, put this or that on top. As Corian is an acrylic I think it fair to assume that this advice would be the same for other turning acrylics.
On a finishing note, this isn’t my opinion except where stated and assumptions I have made, similarly, where stated. I am not telling anyone this is the way to do it, this was what I found out when I researched it and with a bit of other supplementary information thrown in that might be useful. I haven’t found out the micron scratch removal capabilities or the grit equivalent of burnishing cream but I am starting to get the feeling that the use of burnishing cream after micromesh could be a waste of time, technically at least, but I’ll continue to use it because it feels right to me (no logic in that at all!)
I never knew the relationship between micromesh and sandpaper grits, in fact I used to sand to 600 wet and dry and then continue with 800, 1000, 1200 and then swop over to 1500 Micromesh on Acrylics. Well apparently I was wasting my time.
I used to get really fed up with the “silly” little squares of micromesh with the foam in between that were colour coded and the colour always used to come off. Was there any other product using micromesh? I have used the 3 x 6 sheets for a while and much prefer them – its easier to judge the pressure and I don’t get the burn marks – but that was probably because a few years back I used to try and sand far to quickly with Micromesh)
What finally spurred me into finding out was the debate about the abrasive quality of burnishing cream and what the grit rating of it was.
Couldn’t sleep last night and laid in bed at 3am and found this lot out.
Micromesh is made by a company based in Iowa trading as Micro-Surface. If you want to read about them they’re here: MICRO-SURFACE FINISHING PRODUCTS, INC. The product range comprises (of particular interest to us) Micro mesh sheets, 3 x 6 inches, 6 x 12 inches and 12 x 12 inches. Micro mesh is available in three “strengths”, Regular , Mx, and AO, the letter standing for Aluminium Oxide which is marketed as a polishing medium for aluminium finishing. Don’t know what Mx stands for but it is for polishing harder metals (there is actually a fourth called MXD but I think it is even more specialised).
Soft Touch Pads, those with the coloured coding are available in 2 x 2 inch squares and also 3 x 4inch squares, again, available in all three grades. An interesting point here is that they are marketed by micro surface as being applicable for softer woods, implying that another grade is suitable for the harder woods, and the next up the scale is the AO type. You can also get rolls up to fifty foot long! (that’s a lot of pens!) You can also buy three to eight inch discs with either an adhesive or loop backing.
That’s the précis of the relevant micro mesh products, but there are more so take a look. One more that is relevant to the issue of grit labelling of burnishing cream is that they also sell fluids (aka abrasive slurries) and polishes. Micro finish liquid abrasive and Micro gloss are the two products that appear to be relevant to our hobby. Micro Gloss Liquid abrasive will remove a 9 micron scratch (?? See later on grit comparisons) whereas their standard finish is described as 1 micron Micro Gloss. It doesn’t say so but I assume therefore that the supposition is that it will remove a one micron scratch (?) and is therefore a superior product. This rates the abrasive qualities of the liquid abrasive at Micromesh grit 3200. The Micro gloss at the 1 micron level would appear to be at least, if not better than, 12000 (see the grit comparison table).
Just had a break for coffee and saw Pete’s post about Micromesh labelling, they are very open about it and there is a section on their website labelled “Private Labelling” so you can get this stuff under other names but I guess they wont let it go at lower prices.
Micromesh Grit Comparison chart:
Micromesh Regular USA Grit UK Grit Micron
P120 125
120
P150 100
180 P180 80
200 P220 65
P240 60
P320 52
240 50
280 P360 45
320
P400 42
P500
360
P600 40
1500 400 30
P800
500 P1000 20
P1200
1800 600 15
800 P1500 13
2400
P2000 10
1000
P2500 9
3200 1200
3600 1350 8
4000 1500 5
6000 4
8000 3
12000 ????
The USA Grit system is different from ours, so be warned as you can slip up! If you have insomnia you can check out the definitions of the two systems at sandpaper , where you can find out about CAMI, ANSI, FEPA, and SNORE, the latter of which is the end result. But seriously there is some interesting stuff about stearated and non clog papers.
So, thought I would check out the uk distributors and there are several, some that specialise in the aerospace industry and since I don’t want to polish the hubble telescope, I moved on and found this company which specialises in the model making sector. Interesting, especially following Woodys post regarding Plasticard, as this company sell all sorts of colours and thicknesses, so here’s the next comp Jim, segmented plasticard! There are also cutters to make life easier and other things designed to empty our pockets! Sylmasta Ltd is the web address, and they are based in Sussex.
Well no nearer finding out the grit comparison for Burnishing cream and cant find out any details as to the micron depth of scratch that any manufacturer will achieve. However found out that Fiddes burnishing cream is the same as Liberon, their websites use exactly the same wording to describe the product and its capability, but I suspect that someone will tell me that one is the holding company of the other?
On the other issue of finishing corian, and a post regarding the coating of a t cut paint finish on a car, the following may be relevant. Finishing a paint in an environment where prolonged exposure to UV is likely is necessary as the UV will, in the case of a polyester and polyurethane paint (and may be others I don’t know) create a situation that was known to the European Coil Coating Association as white paint flake migration. Paint appears solid but under prolonged exposure to UV light the paint can cause electro statically unattached flakes to migrate to the surface of the material making it appear as if the surface has been sprayed with sea water and the water allowed to evaporate, leaving a salt like deposit. This is both unsightly and causes degradation of the paint finish, ultimately leading to its collapse as a cosmetic and anti corrosion layer. My own opinion after working with metal coatings for over twenty years is that there is no need to coat acrylics after sanding, it wont degrade and the surface is sufficiently dense that additional coatings provide no real purpose as it will not have any prolonged (years) exposure to UV, but that is my opinion. My company used to overcoat the aluminium cladding panels that were coated with a polyester paint and sometimes, (alloy dependent) a polyurethane paint with a polyamide finish to stop the white paint flake migration that dulled the paint finish and left the residue.
The Penmakers guild have an article by Kurt Hertzog entitled working with Corian (www.penmakersguild.com/articles/workingwithcorian.pdf) , that some of you may already have read. The salient points are that he uses 5 minute epoxy to bond corian to wood and ca to bond it to itself having sanded the surfaces to be bonded with 400 wet and dry, sorry don’t know if that is the American 400 or P400 UK grit!! On the subject of finishing Corian, Kurt Hertzog states “Do not use the Novus Polishes after Micro Mesh sanding as you’ll be going backwards.” I cant find any statistics to the abrasive qualities of the Novus polishes so this in itself isn’t much help. He does state though that if you want to take the finishing even further than basic sanding, you should sand to P400 and then use micromesh through to 12000. He doesn’t say don’t use any other polish, just “When you’ve finished the series (Grits) you’ll be amazed at the results.” He doesn’t then say, put this or that on top. As Corian is an acrylic I think it fair to assume that this advice would be the same for other turning acrylics.
On a finishing note, this isn’t my opinion except where stated and assumptions I have made, similarly, where stated. I am not telling anyone this is the way to do it, this was what I found out when I researched it and with a bit of other supplementary information thrown in that might be useful. I haven’t found out the micron scratch removal capabilities or the grit equivalent of burnishing cream but I am starting to get the feeling that the use of burnishing cream after micromesh could be a waste of time, technically at least, but I’ll continue to use it because it feels right to me (no logic in that at all!)
Neil
Fellow
The chart didnt work, ill try and repost it!
Neil
Fellow
mick the pen
Full Member
Hi woody i use auto glym super resin polish, you only use a spot and it only takes 15 seconds to apply and i feel makes for a nice smoother finish. regards mick.
mick the pen
Full Member
Hi neil i use it because it feels better to the touch and only takes a few extra seconds to apply, but this is just my preference regards mick.
Sorry for selectively quoting you Neil, but I felt there was no need to repeat everything. So many things are an emotive subject to the woodturning community, how to sharpen tools, whether to colour wood or not etc.etc. I often wonder what it is about woodturning that makes people so touchy. (That's not directed at anyone or anything in particular just an observation over many years.)
Thank you for sharing your research, there is a lot of useful information in there, some of which I knew, some of which I thought I knew (but was wrong) and some that is entirely news to me. The comparative grits chart is particularly useful.
Right back in the opening post I said that even Terry Smart from Chestnut couldn't provide me with an answer to the comparative grit value of burnishing cream so it is no real surprise that you have drawn a blank there too. My purely subjective comparative test on the Corian you sent me suggests that a final polish with burnishing cream might give a slightly higher polish but as you say, technically it may be a waste of time. Like you, I shall continue to use burnishing cream as the final finish because it feels right, illogical or not.
Thanks Mike I ordered the same thing last night from Amazon I went back to were you said the name and googled it, it should arrive tomorrow thanks for the tip mate I will give it try it when it arrives
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Autoglym-1L...&sr=8-1&keywords=auto+glym+super+resin+polish
Pete B
Registered
Hi Neil,
that was very interesting. I agree with Walter as well, finishing pens is an emotive subject but its because its so important.
Theres never going to a solution that fits everyone and if it works whatever you do, and your customers like it why change.
I did call someone and they wouldn't as i suspected give me an answer as to who Micromesh brand for.
I ve also blagged a couple of free samples of the two micromesh liquids that have been mentioned, the final finish contains carnauba wax as well, and i didn;t know that.
The stuff i use and am hoping to improve on,works for me and is very fast.
I didn't get huge amounts for free but i am going to share it around a bit.
Pete
that was very interesting. I agree with Walter as well, finishing pens is an emotive subject but its because its so important.
Theres never going to a solution that fits everyone and if it works whatever you do, and your customers like it why change.
I did call someone and they wouldn't as i suspected give me an answer as to who Micromesh brand for.
I ve also blagged a couple of free samples of the two micromesh liquids that have been mentioned, the final finish contains carnauba wax as well, and i didn;t know that.
The stuff i use and am hoping to improve on,works for me and is very fast.
I didn't get huge amounts for free but i am going to share it around a bit.
Pete
ZuluTiming
Full Member
This is interesting thread. I like the way that great turners reveal their secrets to us hobby/newbie turners.
If there was an scientific way to determine the "glossiness" of the turned pieces that would probably help, as there is a price issue as well.
If there was an scientific way to determine the "glossiness" of the turned pieces that would probably help, as there is a price issue as well.
Well I suppose I had better reveal my secret...
Dodo juice.... Yes you heard it here first. and I'm surprised that no one has come up with it. Suppose I'm the outsider here...
Dodo Juice Lime Prime Pre-Wax Cleanser | Automotive Polish | DJLP10L
Followed by Autoglym.. Mer or any other wax, including Ren wax..
I was advised by a car restorer to use some of this on my car when it had lost its colour and finish. Tried T-cut and that broke my back and was a real pain to use. When it runs out will I buy it again? not sure, might try something else on the way through life..
But as you all say, provided its finished with what you all feel is good then if it works for you then don't change it.. Simple.
Dodo juice.... Yes you heard it here first. and I'm surprised that no one has come up with it. Suppose I'm the outsider here...
Dodo Juice Lime Prime Pre-Wax Cleanser | Automotive Polish | DJLP10L
Followed by Autoglym.. Mer or any other wax, including Ren wax..
I was advised by a car restorer to use some of this on my car when it had lost its colour and finish. Tried T-cut and that broke my back and was a real pain to use. When it runs out will I buy it again? not sure, might try something else on the way through life..
But as you all say, provided its finished with what you all feel is good then if it works for you then don't change it.. Simple.
see ladies & gentlemen, we are able to have an interesting debate without having crossed words or anyone taking umbrage at what someone has said, nice innit???
Now, sod off with the boring stuff and bring back to lively debates, much more fun
(The above line is a joke for those without personality or a sense of humour)
Now, sod off with the boring stuff and bring back to lively debates, much more fun
(The above line is a joke for those without personality or a sense of humour)
Now, sod off with the boring stuff and bring back to lively debates, much more fun
(The above line is a joke for those without personality or a sense of humour)
How dare you suggest I don't have a sense of humour? People have been laughing at my jokes for years. At least I think they were laughing at the jokes.
ZuluTiming
Full Member
Well, after rereading this thread once more I went and ordered some Farecla from Pete and I am going to test it on some Ebonite which I have difficult time polishing as I need to go through all the steps in the book just to get it shiny. I hope it works. I will also test the toothpaste, car polish and brasso, for good measure. If I get angry enough I might splash money for Autoglym. Will see.:pray: