Like you said, tell him to use a roller ball or even a standard ball point whilst flying, certainly the easiest option.
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Fountain Pens on Planes
- Thread starter Buckeye
- Start date
Neil
Fellow
Blimey, that's scary, just read the link that Matt posted. I used to commute twice a week to Rotterdam via Luton and Schipol (and used to get to my desk quicker than it took me to get to the centre of London despite the fact that I only live 32m from the centre!)
Used to have a chairmans and a one diameter both fountains in my pocket and never had a problem, but I didn't use them on the flight. Do you get charged extra for using a fountain pen on Ryanair?
Used to have a chairmans and a one diameter both fountains in my pocket and never had a problem, but I didn't use them on the flight. Do you get charged extra for using a fountain pen on Ryanair?
I have never heard of a FP ban, but it wouldn't surprise me, more likely the security you encountered were being jobsworths. Apparently this guy flies a lot and always take his fountain pen, but I must talk to him and find out if he has problems with leakage or just inconsistant ink flow.
I just googled it and the only thing I can find is a ban by Quantas but only the ban was only if the pen had ink in it, in 2006.
There is an interesting article on the rise of FP sales in 2012
Peter
That sounds just like what I have read, it is the problem of the pen not working reliably that I can't find. When I speak to him I will find out if there was adequate ink or when it occurs.
Peter
No, no, no if he is prepared to buy one of my pens I want to try and find a solution to his problem with the pen he has, if it turns out his pen just won't work and mine does that will increase my sales to his contacts, I hope.
People
Probably was a jobsworf but he weren't allowing it on and I never tried again since.
I learned a lesson on the previous flight to leave the Dunhill at home and take a cheapy plastic lighter in case I had to ditch it which I did every time.
They don't like any fluids or batteries at Luton unless they have been purchased in departure.
Interesting subject subject this one with little info to google init?
I learned a lesson on the previous flight to leave the Dunhill at home and take a cheapy plastic lighter in case I had to ditch it which I did every time.
They don't like any fluids or batteries at Luton unless they have been purchased in departure.
Interesting subject subject this one with little info to google init?
Neil
Fellow
I would have thought (without any evidence) that the problem is likely to be exacerbated by the incorrect use of suspension inks in fountain pens?
ha ha, this is a great thread
Its Boyles Law what your talking about. The gas in a cartridge or refill if it has gas inside (liquid doesn't compress) will be subjected to pressure from outside the container so if you pressurise a cartridge and hold it upright, the ink will be forced out. However if the cartridge is on its side or upside down so that the gas can come out instead, it won't leak. Try it out. hold a plastic container upside down (up the right way for a fountain pen) with some water in it and squeeze it to act like the pressure being exerted on it. Water comes out. Now turn it up the other way and squeeze it. Assuming there is only a bit of pressure as there would be in a plane, only air comes out.
In other words, I'm not sure
Its Boyles Law what your talking about. The gas in a cartridge or refill if it has gas inside (liquid doesn't compress) will be subjected to pressure from outside the container so if you pressurise a cartridge and hold it upright, the ink will be forced out. However if the cartridge is on its side or upside down so that the gas can come out instead, it won't leak. Try it out. hold a plastic container upside down (up the right way for a fountain pen) with some water in it and squeeze it to act like the pressure being exerted on it. Water comes out. Now turn it up the other way and squeeze it. Assuming there is only a bit of pressure as there would be in a plane, only air comes out.
In other words, I'm not sure
That is a great theory and one that describes the action very well.
If that is the case then why is all the advise to fill it to maximum and keep it upright?
Surely the advise should be to allow room for expansion and only half fill the cartridge.
The never fill a gas bootle or any container that requires space for expansion for this reason init?
If that is the case then why is all the advise to fill it to maximum and keep it upright?
Surely the advise should be to allow room for expansion and only half fill the cartridge.
The never fill a gas bootle or any container that requires space for expansion for this reason init?
Peter, one of the key processes which makes a fountain pen 'work' is the pace of air exchange between the feed channels and the reservoir. If the air can get into the cartridge too quickly all of the ink will gush out in a blob, while if it can't get in fast enough the ink will feed erratically. The viscosity of the ink obviously also has something to do with this, as the thicker it is the slower it will leave the reservoir, reducing the pace at which air can get in.
Obviously all of this is sensitive to air pressure, as air molecules at lower pressure are larger and will find it harder to move through a given narrow channel than they would at higher pressure. So it is quite possible that fountain pens will misbehave on planes, but almost impossible to predict! All of which in addition to the obvious effect of pressure differences in the reservoir forcing ink out in a blob. Taking the cartridge off and replacing it will help with pressure inside the cartridge, but will do nothing to change the rate of air exchange.
Hope this makes sense?
Obviously all of this is sensitive to air pressure, as air molecules at lower pressure are larger and will find it harder to move through a given narrow channel than they would at higher pressure. So it is quite possible that fountain pens will misbehave on planes, but almost impossible to predict! All of which in addition to the obvious effect of pressure differences in the reservoir forcing ink out in a blob. Taking the cartridge off and replacing it will help with pressure inside the cartridge, but will do nothing to change the rate of air exchange.
Hope this makes sense?
Neil
Fellow
Perhaps this explains the expansion of gas during flight!
Gas Expansion in the GI Tract
The Gastrointestinal (GI) tract is a continuous space from the mouth & esophagus through the stomach, small intestine, large intestine and finally out of the rectum and anus. Obviously, this space has two openings to allow gas to pass (either as a belch or flatus depending on the direction of interest), but decreasing pressure with ascent will still provoke symptoms as the volume of gastrointestinal gas expands.
The Digestive Tract :: When all is functioning properly, food will flow unidirectionally from one's mouth thru the esophagus to the stomach, small intestines, and large intestines, before final evacuation from the rectum and anus. Residing in this tract is a large amount of gas that will contract or expand with pressure changes.
As gas expands throughout the GI tract, pain receptors sensitive to stretch often will provoke abdominal discomfort. In certain cases this expansion of gas can be so profound that the diaphragm is prevented from fully descending during inhalation, disrupting respiration. Abdominal pain can be avoided by allowing early belching and passing of flatus in addition to staying away from foods that produce gas before flight or SCUBA. Some of the most notorious offenders are beans, broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, cabbage, and carbonated drinks. If you can’t say no to the baked beans, let’s just hope you’re in a single-seater aircraft!
Gas Expansion in the GI Tract
The Gastrointestinal (GI) tract is a continuous space from the mouth & esophagus through the stomach, small intestine, large intestine and finally out of the rectum and anus. Obviously, this space has two openings to allow gas to pass (either as a belch or flatus depending on the direction of interest), but decreasing pressure with ascent will still provoke symptoms as the volume of gastrointestinal gas expands.
The Digestive Tract :: When all is functioning properly, food will flow unidirectionally from one's mouth thru the esophagus to the stomach, small intestines, and large intestines, before final evacuation from the rectum and anus. Residing in this tract is a large amount of gas that will contract or expand with pressure changes.
As gas expands throughout the GI tract, pain receptors sensitive to stretch often will provoke abdominal discomfort. In certain cases this expansion of gas can be so profound that the diaphragm is prevented from fully descending during inhalation, disrupting respiration. Abdominal pain can be avoided by allowing early belching and passing of flatus in addition to staying away from foods that produce gas before flight or SCUBA. Some of the most notorious offenders are beans, broccoli, cauliflower, brussels sprouts, cabbage, and carbonated drinks. If you can’t say no to the baked beans, let’s just hope you’re in a single-seater aircraft!
Thanks David, I understand about air being necessary for flow of ink, but you have given me another avenue to explore with the ink that he uses, is it a thicker ink. I read that earlier pens that used a simpler feed without the comb feed or with less of a comb were more likely to leak. It will be interesting for me to find out the kind of ink he uses and if it happens every time he is on a plane. Another thought I had was that his pen may also need a good clean.
Peter
I think it was Luton, but may have been Stanstead where I had a tiny pen knife on my keyring. I was advised to go and buy some envelopes and stamps and post it to myself. I rushed around and put it into the envelope and went to the postbox but the slots on the postbox wouldn't allow anything thicker that 2 or 3 normal envelops through. Then I was advised that there was a commercial desk where they could send parcels for people, went there wanted £30-£40 to send me the pen knife. Fortunately one of the guys behind the desk said he would take it with him and post it after he finished, I was happy so gave him £5. If it wasn't a present that my daughter had bought when she was a kid I would have just let it be confiscated.
Peter
The reason for filling it to the maximum is because liquid cannot be compressed so won't be affected from the effects of pressurisation/de-pressurisation. Keeping it upright (nib upwards) means that any gas in the refill will be at the top so any effects of pressurisation will ensure that only gas comes out and not ink, although because of capillary action, some ink will remain in the mechanism. However during pressurisation this ink should be pushed back into the reservoir (if the reservoir is hard).
Of course all of this is dependent on the flexibility of the reservoir because if it is very flexible then the opposite can occur. For instance if it was a flimsy bag with ink and air in it, during compression, because the end is sealed (the ink in the end due to capillary action) then the gas in the bag will be compressed and push the ink out.
As a diver, when going into saturation and being blown down (pressurised) all bottles had to be opened to allow the gas inside to equalise with the outside pressure and similarly during decompression. A balloon on the surface containing 1 cubic foot of air on the surface will only contain 1/2 cubic foot at 10m and similarly the other way round and 1 cubic foot at 10m will contain 2 cubic feet on the surface. This however is not the same in a solid container which could implode / explode due to the increase in pressure on the outside during decent or the decrease in pressure during accent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZSajBakGK4
Simples!
That sounds absolutely spot on for Luton mate and a similar story to my fountain pen and after exploring the avenues of posting home and time left for departure decide to ditch the scribe and get my ride.
Having read and taken in most of what has been discussed here I have to say what an intelligent mob you all are with great understanding and advice.
A little sum up of the equation so far brings up may variables and unknowns you will be interrogating your customer to give him answer of "Unpredictable".
Size of aperture and expansion rate.
Viscosity of fluid/ink at any given temperature.
Pressure given at any time under which circumstances.
Angle and method of storage / subject to what movements.
Is it allowed on this flight?
Here's a pencil to write the answers to the questions so far I am sure there will be more before I can say "Still unpredictable".
I wish I was due to fly some time soon, but the next time I do I will be taking various FP with varying amounts of ink (and plastic bags) with me. I am quite looking forward to it. Depending on the result I can honestly say claim that this model FP has been tested on a plane and came through the ordeal well
I wonder if, as an experiment, Paul could strap a FP to each of his birds legs and get them to soar high and dive fast, he would have to teach them to unscrew the cap, mind
Peter
Write while the plane is already stable in the air if you want to write on board without any issues. As you take off, don't write.
It is important to always ensure that the ink in your fountain pen is fully filled. This will ensure that there is no space for the ink in the reservoir to swell.
It is important to always ensure that the ink in your fountain pen is fully filled. This will ensure that there is no space for the ink in the reservoir to swell.
howsitwork?
Graduate Member
Interesting thread , thanks for all the info.