Glueing tubes into blanks .... what am I missing?

[Pierre]

I always use gorilla glue and sand the tubes with 80 grit sandpaper (when the tubes are extruded they use an oil to allow the tube to move down the extrusion bit so you have to remove this excess oil and create keyways to hold the glue) , gorilla glue does like humidity to set, so I blow down the tubes to remove any dust and to dampen the inside. I apply the glue to the tube in a spiral and insert one end into the blank twisting it to spread the glue then the same end into the other end of the blank again twisting it to spread the glue around. Any excess glue I slice off with a Stanley knife, when its dry, and I always use a barrel trimmer (but I do sharpen mine with a file) . I don't have any tube slippage. Much also depends on your climatic conditions ie here when it is zero degrees I keep the glue in the house because it does not like the cold. Gorilla will fill any gap up to 1mm in my experience. When I turn I always turn at 3500 rpm from the outset this reduces the 'air' time created with the corners of the square blank (just as you would with a winged box).

PG

 

[Dalboy]

Quickly flipping through all the possible that have been given one thing comes to mind when drilling the hole the tube does not need to be a tight fit in the blank as all you are doing is to rub of the adhesive therefore giving little to stick the two together. The tube should slid through the blank but not to the point of it moving about to much, like Flexi I measure each tube and find a bit to suit and don't rely on the said sizes by manufacturers.

I use either epoxy resin glues or the polyurethane expanding type glues and found that I don't usually have any problems unless I do something stupid. Getting a catch can break a bond either as you have found or the blank just breaks up completely

 

[21William]

As said, the most important part is to use the right size drill. If you need to use Polyurethane glue to fill the gap you’ve used too big a drill bit. Use Epoxy glue instead, it’s far better than Polyurethane in my opinion, has a much, much longer shelf life and is less messy. I used to glue all my archery points into the arrow tube with Araldite when I was into archery and never had a point come loose.

 

[Bill Mooney]

Welcome Simon. You don’t say if you are drilling on the lathe or using a pillar drill. If you drill on the lathe. If drilling on the lathe check your headstock / tailstock alignment by doing the kiss test. This involves putting your headstock drive in the spindle, bringing the tailstock up close to the drive & locking it to the bed. Slowly wind the tailstock quill out until the point of tour tailstock drive is nearly touching the point of your headstock drive. Check both vertically & horizontally to see if the points are in line. If they aren’t then adjust the headstock to line them up. If your lathe has a swivel head then unclamped the head line the points up then reclamation the head. Recheck the alignment to see if the head has moved when reclamping.
If you have a fixes head & the points don’t line up then loosen the bolts, line up the points then retighten the bolts, again recheck alignment. Also check your tailstock when unclamped to see how much side movement you have as thes can also have an effect. It tends to make the holes oversize even if using the right size drill. I know because I had this problem with one of my lathes which is now cured. The tubes were very slack in the holes & caused problems. It’s long winded but I hope it helps.

 

[Natator]

Try a 9.8mm bit or even 9.7. Holes usually come out a fraction oversized in my experience

9.8 mm HSS Jobber Drill bit. | eBay
9.7 mm HSS Jobber Drill bit. | eBay

9.8 would be perfect but can’t find locally, will look online. I think the hole size being too large was definitely part of my problem.

 

[Natator]

Welcome Simon. You don’t say if you are drilling on the lathe or using a pillar drill. If you drill on the lathe. If drilling on the lathe check your headstock / tailstock alignment by doing the kiss test. This involves putting your headstock drive in the spindle, bringing the tailstock up close to the drive & locking it to the bed. Slowly wind the tailstock quill out until the point of tour tailstock drive is nearly touching the point of your headstock drive. Check both vertically & horizontally to see if the points are in line. If they aren’t then adjust the headstock to line them up. If your lathe has a swivel head then unclamped the head line the points up then reclamation the head. Recheck the alignment to see if the head has moved when reclamping.
If you have a fixes head & the points don’t line up then loosen the bolts, line up the points then retighten the bolts, again recheck alignment. Also check your tailstock when unclamped to see how much side movement you have as thes can also have an effect. It tends to make the holes oversize even if using the right size drill. I know because I had this problem with one of my lathes which is now cured. The tubes were very slack in the holes & caused problems. It’s long winded but I hope it helps.

Thanks Bill, didn’t think of that one. Did as you suggested but they were lined up beautifully as it happens.

 

[Natator]

Ok, an update and a huge thank you to everyone who added their collective knowledge to this as it REALLY helped me out.

Problem was, I’m convinced, the hole being slightly bigger than it should be. I’ll look for the 9.7 or 9.8 mm drill bit for this particular pen set (as I like this kit). If I can’t find locally, Brisbane (disgustingly hot and humid but the gorilla glue should like that ), I’ll order from the link someone kindly gave me for eBay UK as I’ll be home in sunny Hertfordshire for Christmas.

As an update though .... having blended the excellent advice you’ll all provided I’ve done a load more glue ups, on wood. Has 100% success rate with the tube staying firmly in place. Yay!!! Much more fun now :)

Even managed, using epoxy, a couple of acrylics and tubes stayed out there as well. Managed to shatter one of those, but it was brittle and I’m still learning, but other one worked perfectly ..... well, turning wise, it ended up being too thin for that particular pen kit and I could see the tube through the acrylic which spoiled it. However, I much prefer wood so don’t expect to do too many acrylic.

So, thank you everyone, this thread has really solved my issue and got me turning with so much less frustration

 

[21William]

Glad to here you’re getting on ok now Simon. Acrylics can be a pain to turn, I think we’ve all smashed one at some point!

 

[Frederick]

Hi

In my limited experience I think that ambient conditions may effect the curing times of adhesives. Maybe a gentle application of heat to the blank could aid curing times.

If this doesn't work then I am allergic to pain

Please let us know how you get on.

Cheers
Frederick

 

[Penpal]

What a diatribe on making a pen in relation to your post Simon. It must be obvious that we all have had or will a steep learning curve with these aspects in making pens. I have found committing equipment to do repetitive tasks that give quick and accurate help in the process to be very cheap over the years when amortised over numbers of beaut results. In the last while I have given huge numbers of special equipment to a mens shed. I was at a Craft Show recently tootling along on my disability scooter,a voice from above high Sir Peter (a title given with a life membership of that mens shed). Initially when I was first in the rush and bustle of years in pens my wife observed how I would be dissapointed when I got to turning proper. I made my first lathe etc and yes I have loved creating things to make pens.One thing that always amuses is the price and quality of drills the unseen blessings of repeatability and just how cheap they work out to be. Constant measurement of them when you buy them will reveal subtle but real errors inn sizes that can also contribute to under and overs.

Peter.

 

[wm460]

This is what I use.

Selleys 200ml Araldite Super Strength Epoxy Adhesive | Bunnings Warehouse

 

[JollyJim]

Hi All

What is everyone using to block the ends of the tubes before gluing please?

I always use potato but it's messy and the Araldite epoxy is, I'm sure, soaking through the potato !!!

Someone in this topic uses wax, what sort is that? Soft, hard..? and I've heard of people using
dental impression putty but it looks very expensive...

So.....any suggestions please, gratefully received.....

Best wishes - Jim

 

[AllenN]

I use plasticine. Works for me.

 

[JollyJim]

Thanks Allen.. you've made my mind up - that was going to be my next choice - I'm off to the shops....

Cheers - Jim

 

[Bucks]

Plasticine for me too

 

[Frederick]

Hi and welcome,

It sounds to me if you are being a little too quick in turning and not allowing the glue to harden/cure. There is a lot of pressure placed on the glue between the blank and tube when turning.
I use Alaldite two part epoxy which (up until now) has served me well: but I always wait for at least 12 hours before I turn. I know the temptation is always there to get it on the lathe, but patience
is a wonderful asset and pays dividends in the end ( Oh dear, now I have gone and said it :pray:)

I do not use pen end mills either; just don't like them. I find that they always need sharpening or cleaning. A disc sander correctly set up I find is better for me.

I am no expert compared with some members on here, but this is just what I have discovered after making litterally hundreds of pens.

Hope it works out for you.

Cheers,
Frederick

Phil, any chance of spell checker on here; my spelling is awful

 

[Lons]

I've seen plasticene type modelling clay in the quid shops so cheap enough, one thing I do after plugging the ends before gluing is wipe the tubes with rubbing alchohol / water mix ( isopropyl ) to take of wax from fingers and at the ends from the plasticene.

Just looking back in general if the blanks are squred off properly the tubes sholdn't be able to spin loose as the bushes are in contact with the wood or acrylic of the blank. One issue when using a pen mill is that it can leave the tube fractionly proud of the blank in which case spinning makes sense as the bushes would be pressing on the tube only.

I never round corners of blanks either, as its easier to take them off with a roughing gouge or skew, just need to be gentle.

Bob

ps. isopropyl is one of the best general cleaners I've ever bought, I use it around the workshop for all sorts of things and it goes a long way.
pps. I don't trust CA glue so only ever use polyurethane on wood and epoxy on acrylic, antler, corian etc.

 

[Pierre]

I don't use anything, I use gorilla glue and once the blank is in, I scrape off the excess glue with a glue spatula from the hobby shop and any excess over or just in the hole pings off once its dry with the point of a Stanley knife. The barrel trimmer then takes out any deeper residue. When you make pens in quantity, you dont have time to play with potatoes or whatever.

PG

 

[Penpal]

Two long term makers of top quality pens never used glues to join the blanks to the tubes relying on super accurate drills especially made for them. Neither were in contact with the other,both came to this method and decision by themselves.The pressure fit sustained their pens made from top quality blanks.

Jim as a firm believer in using slices of potato to temporarily seal the brass you would probably regard the method I undertake of cleaning after inserting the brass into the potato as superfluous and the so many small steps I use as time wasting,however they work so well for me.

I have used no less than twenty or thirty glues over the years successfully.

Currently I am getting a one off step drill made to clean the brass internally after glueing and cutting or reaming the ends of the brass at the entry. It will be made of super tough steel and ground to my design in the near future at a European Manufacturer operating out of Melbourne.

I also use this step drill as a go no go guage before I glue them up since the tube sizes vary,too small ,in the bin etc.

Numerous methods and techniques are important to me . Even the thought or remark of fear using the wifes potato expressed by mates of mine shocks me.

I check by caliper and drill guage my drills at source raising eyebrows doing that.

My many quirks developed over a long time reassure me with the basics.

I see you are now having success trust it continues and you survive the riguers of Brisbane to get back to your sunny Herofordshire in time.

Have fun mate enjoy this journey.

Kind reghards Peter.

 

[JollyJim]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for your reply and information.

I am more than impressed of inserting the
tubes into such a well fitting hole that glue is not needed. As I spend more time with this 'hobby',
I am amazed at some of the tolerances that the 'experienced' guys work to. I'm guessing that
this talent comes from an engineering background rather than a woodwork one.
Nevertheless, some of the items that are shown in forums, youtube etc, are
just astounding !!! I also very much appreciate your ability to 'see through
a problem' in mostly, such simplistic ways whereas I normally start at the difficult
end first - if you see what I mean.

So, one question - those special stepped drills for cleaning up and cleaning
out the brass tubes ...... do you have one for each size tube or have I
missed a salient point ?

Peter, I don't post too much on here, I'm more a reader, but just
wanted to say how much I enjoy your posts, how kind you are to
those that need it and how much I appreciate your talent.

Hoping your health is improving

Very best wishes from damp, grey, wet and miserable Peterborough, England

Jim :wink::waver: